Question: Could you please explain what you mean by "mind," Master?
Answer: The word “mind” is just a name. It's merely a name, and the only way to truly
understand it is through direct personal experience. It can never be grasped through
explanation. No matter how it's explained, the mind cannot be known that way—it can only be
known through experience. Scriptures and the sayings of monks all attempt to explain the mind,
but they differ from one another, and none of them are entirely accurate. That’s because each
teaching was given as a kind of medicine, tailored to the listener’s needs. So the mind is not
something that can be conceptually grasped or explained in words. To truly grasp the mind, one
must have the right attitude—a sincere desire to know it. What we call “the study of the mind” is
essentially about correcting that attitude. At first, people usually try to understand the mind
through knowledge or concepts. But the purpose of the study of the mind is to correct that
approach, because such an attitude cannot lead to true understanding.
The genuine desire to know the mind is like a child who longs for a toy so much that they can’t
sleep at night. When that kind of yearning arises, one can begin to recognize the mind within
oneself. That’s what it is—not something that can be defined or described as “this” or “that.” So
this study of the mind is not something that can be achieved by reading many books or listening
to many teachings. It depends entirely on one’s own attitude.
Question: Is there no other way than having that deep yearning to know?
Answer: That's right. Nothing else is required. Even if someone lives with a certain level of
wealth, family, or fame—according to the values most people hold—what truly matters is not
those external things. It’s more like a vague yearning, a question about one’s own existence: “Is
the value of my life really found in these things? Or could it be within myself?” A person who
carries such questions in daily life—who wonders whether there might be a deeper, inner value
beyond worldly concerns like earning money, gaining recognition, or managing family affairs—is
someone who can truly engage in this study of the mind.
Otherwise, it just remains as knowledge. Like merely scratching the surface of a watermelon
without tasting what’s inside.
Question: In my case, since adolescence, I have often asked myself, “Who is the true me?” But I
could not find an answer at the time, and that question faded as I moved on to college and then
into working life. I didn’t really have the space to think deeply, and I feel like I was swept along
by the flow of things. Before achieving something, I was busy chasing it, and once I achieved it,
I felt empty. That same pattern kept repeating—a sense of incompleteness, always having to
chase something else. In the end, I came to believe, “There is no such thing as truth.” That’s
how I’ve lived until now. But when you speak with such certainty—saying “This is it!”—I find
myself half-believing, half-doubting. I wonder if something like that really exists... My thirst is not
completely quenched, and I still don’t feel convinced.
Answer: This is how our worldly life tends to go. We dive into each task with the vague hope
that, “Once this is over, maybe I’ll be happy and fulfilled.” We pour all our energy into it, and
when it’s done, there’s a fleeting joy—but it quickly fades, and everything feels the same again.
Nothing has truly changed. Then we think, “I guess I need to take on something else now.” And
before long, just as you said, we find ourselves thinking, “No matter what I do, it’s all the same.
There’s nothing particularly special about life.” And so we end up living with a sense of
resignation.
Question: I feel a bit uneasy even as I give up.
Answer: It's true that you give up but remain dissatisfied. It's not that you stopped because you
were satisfied. You gave up because you couldn't find a way to make it fulfilling, even though you were dissatisfied.
Ultimately, the solution to all these problems of life does not come from outside. For example, no
matter how high you pursue honor and reach the top, you're not fully satisfied there. No matter
how much money you earn, you're not satisfied there either. This satisfaction can only be found
within your own inner self.
Question: I think I always had the thought, 'I can't find it outside.'
Answer: Even when we turn inward, we often gravitate toward things like art, philosophy, or
literature. We mistakenly think that these are the inner self. We delve into philosophical inquiries
to acquire grand theories, or we examine various aspects of human psychology and life through
literature and art, and mistakenly believe that we've somehow grasped the entirety of life. But
that's an illusion.
Question: After I write something, I don't look at it. I don't want to see it. It feels like it's not it...
Answer: Exactly. While you're doing it, you're driven by curiosity and the desire to explore. But
once it's done, there's an emptiness. You avoid looking at it because deep down, you know it’s
not 'it.‘
Question: So I end up thinking it’s because I lacked the ability to express it fully. That I wasn’t
skilled enough...
Answer: In art or philosophy, there's no such thing as completion in terms of the work's quality or
theoretical depth. There isn't, but we expect completion.
Question: That's right! I always have that thirst...
Answer: It's like always striving with the thought that there's some kind of completion, but I lack
the ability to reach it.
Question: With the thought that something real will come out someday...
Answer: That's right. "It'll happen someday..." But why can't there be completion? Because it's
something created and manipulated by humans. It's the Tower of Babel. Because it's created, no
matter how high you stack it, if you build 100 stories, the 101st floor is waiting next, so there's no
end.
Question: Really? Is that true?
Answer: When it comes to things we create—yes. Think about it. It’s simple logic. If someone
has been creating something for 30 years, someone who’s been creating for 31 years will have
produced more. If humans lived 80, 100, or even 200 years, the volume and depth of what they
create would naturally be different. In the end, it’s not that we lack the ability to finish—it’s that
we run out of time. That’s why there’s no completion. Even if we lived a thousand years, it would
be the same. What humans create is endless. You might think you've completed something, but
when you look back years later, you realize: there’s no such thing as completion.
Question: Why do humans live that way?
Answer: The reason we are compelled to pursue endlessly is because the first button was
fastened incorrectly.
Question: But most people...
Answer: Not most, but 100% are like that. So, in Christian terms, humanity was cursed by God.
It began the moment they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. In Buddhist terms, that's the starting point of sentient beings.
Question: So, being born human means that's just how it has to be...
Answer: That's right. That's a fundamental characteristic of humans. We are born with a physical
body, so we are fundamentally inclined to look external world. We cannot see our own existence
directly. We look outward. All our physical senses are designed to perceive what’s ourside.
Consequently, consciousness is also always directed outward. Based on what we absorb
through our senses, we keep constructing images. That’s the basic mechanism of our
consciousness.
Question: So you're saying we endlessly create things using sensory input as raw material?
Answer: That's right. Endlessly... That's the mechanism of consciousness. As beings born with
physical bodies, we rely on sensory perception to survive. And as we live, our consciousness
follows that path—seeing, hearing, smelling, touching—and from those inputs, we think, judge,
and make sense of the world. We combine and assemble these differentiated sensory elements
into mental images. What we call a worldview is essentially built from that, isn't it? And within
that framework, we try to create something more harmonious, more desirable, more plausible.
That’s what we call philosophy, art, and other cultural activities. But when we look at reality as it
is—human society—through the lens of the values we’ve learned, it often appears absurd. We
may not know exactly what that absurdity is, but we feel dissatisfied. So we try to transform that
dissatisfaction into something more satisfying. We believe we can do that by continuously
controlling, adjusting, or changing the external world.
But is that really possible? You might be able to decorate and change your own room as you
please. But even with your family, that’s not so easy—because they’re other people. So the idea
of changing the world is, frankly, unrealistic.
Then we think: if we can’t change the outside world, maybe we should change our thoughts.
Since we can’t control external things to make them satisfying, and no matter how much we
think about it, no clear answer emerges, the final conclusion we reach is to change our own
thinking.
In other words, if the environment won’t change, we try to adapt to it. But adapting means giving
up part of ourselves, and that brings various sufferings. The dissatisfaction still remains. So
even that isn’t a true solution. The problems of life can’t be solved by any method we
consciously come up with. Religion offers a different kind of solution. It teaches us to let go—not
just externally, but internally as well. We must abandon our own desires.
But that doesn’t mean we should blindly accept unreasonable situations. Let go, yes—but don’t
let go of the desperate hope that there’s a way out. Even if we can’t do anything, we still want
solve this. If you feel that way, you'll experience deep agony, and when you're in such a situation
and it ripens to a certain extent, a solution will emerge on its own.
That's what I mean by "deep yearning." That solution doesn't come from our conscious mind.
The solution emerges in a way that is utterly unimaginable and completely unexpected.
Suddenly, all the burdens that were weighing you down, all the burdens you were carrying, are
resolved all at once, as if they've disappeared.
Question: Is it possible with just that deep yearning for such a solution?
Answer: There's nothing else. That's the only method.
Question: So, even in daily life, all I need is that deep yearning, asking "What is that solution?"
Answer: If you have a deep yearning, you'll unconsciously search in various ways. You'll feel
frustrated if you just sit still, even with a deep yearning... So you come to a Seon center, read books, and if there's a great teacher somewhere, you seek them out and ask questions.
Question: But you don't give specific explanations, do you? You say it can't be put into words...
Answer: Actually, I can't give it to you. It's absolutely impossible. You already possess it. No one
else can give it to you. That solution, so to speak, is an experience of your own existence. Who
possesses your existence if not yourself? The reason we wander around externally is because
we don't know our own existence. No one can give you the recognition of your own existence.
There's no other way than to confirm it yourself. Since you've only been chasing outwardly until
now, my role is to guide you to turn your direction inward.
Question: Besides Buddhist scriptures, for example, the Bible, can we say that all scriptures tell
the same story?
Answer: Yes, they're the same. It's exactly the content I just explained. In conclusion, they are
all talking about this.
However, if you only look at the words written there, it's like in Buddhism, where the Buddha's
words are often said to be a finger pointing to the moon, but foolish sentient beings see only the
finger and not the moon. Generally, people only look at the words written there, only at the
finger, and fail to see what the words are pointing to. That's a problem. So, if you just read books
and say, "Christianity is like this," or "Islam is like this," you're merely talking about the finger.
Question: I want to see the moon, but it is not easy...
Answer: If you want to see the moon, it doesn't happen overnight. As the saying goes, "Great
talent takes time to ripen." You have to invest your life, your whole being, over many years. So,
don't be hasty. Take it slow, but with a deep yearning and strong faith. Believe: "Someday, it will
happen. If it’s possible at all, then it’s possible for me too." It's like climbing a high mountain: you
have to look straight ahead and take one step at a time. There's no need to look at how far
others have climbed; that will only drain your strength. If you keep going, looking only ahead,
you'll only see the path, and then suddenly, at some moment, the view will open up. That
moment will come. You have to keep going until then.
Question: Some people say they achieved enlightenment just by hearing a single line from a
text someone else read...
Answer: That person has already come a long way in that manner over a long period. It doesn't
happen by chance. Someone who’s been quietly preparing for years—who’s built the right
foundation—only needs a single spark. There’s a saying: 'Pecking from inside and tapping from
outside must happen at the same time.' An egg doesn’t hatch suddenly. It takes time and the
right conditions.
Question: I think I misunderstood at first. I thought some people just get it quickly, and others
never do, no matter how hard they try...
Answer: (laughs) There’s always a reason why something doesn’t happen. Think about it—if you
leave an egg in the refrigerator, no matter how long you wait, it won’t hatch. There’s a reason
behind every failure.
Question: Can you recommend any books that might inspire me?
Answer: There aren't that many books worth reading. You shouldn't just read any book. There
are actually very few good books. Why? Because most books come from human thought—from
reasoning. And they lead you deeper into reasoning. When we read, we become familiar with
the mind of the author. Books generated from thoughts only train more thought. They don’t bring
you to this very place. You need books written from this very place—not from thought. But few
people have truly experienced this very place. And even fewer have written about it without mixing in their own thoughts. People who don’t know this very place tend to read many books,
but all they’re doing is practicing thought—not encountering true reality.
Question: So, does reading books related to this topic in daily life help with this study of the
mind?
Answer: If you’re aware that understanding something intellectually from a book isn’t the same
as true learning, then it’s okay. You’ll read, but you won’t be chasing knowledge. Instead, you’ll
read with a deep yearning—‘There’s something here, but I don’t quite grasp it.’ That yearning
itself is what helps. The knowledge doesn’t help at all. The best analogy is waking up from a
dream. Imagine you’re having a nightmare and you desperately want to wake up. Life feels like
that nightmare—unsatisfying, and you want out. So in the dream, you try all sorts of things to
wake up: you pinch yourself, you scream... but do you wake up? No. Because all of that is still
part of the dream. No method will wake you up. But when the frustration in that nightmare
reaches its peak, at some point, you'll suddenly wake up without even realizing it, not through a
method. Your eyes will just snap open.
Question: But I think that to have such a deep yearning, you need to have a firm belief that such
a solution definitely exists. If you’re unsure—‘Does such a thing even exist?’—your heart doesn’t
fully commit. But if you’re certain it’s real, then you’ll start searching for it...
Answer: (laughs) 100% certain faith only comes from confirming it yourself. For thousands of
years, countless people have said this, and it's written in various scriptures. However, no person
or scripture can make you believe with absolute certainty. If someone says, 'I’ll only pursue this
path if I’m 100% convinced. Someone must prove to me that this is real before I begin,' then
there’s no possibility—because there’s no way to provide that kind of proof.
Question: So I guess... it has to be a matter of connection of timing.
Answer: Exactly. Your heart has to move on its own...
Question: They say that everything—every being, every object—contains mind, Buddha-nature,
or divinity. Even animals. Is that essence really seeped into all things?
Answer: It is seeped—but it’s not something you can verify by examining individual objects.
Once you’ve confirmed it, you realize there’s nothing that isn’t it. But before that confirmation, it’s
not something you can discover through scientific methods—observation, experimentation, or
deep analysis.
Question: So, it's not something that can be solved by looking outward. It's by looking at myself,
within myself...
Answer: "Looking within myself" isn't actually the most accurate expression either. "Looking at
myself" already objectifies myself. You shouldn't look at it as an object. Simply put, (picking up
the teacup in front) you might inquire, "What is the true nature of this cup? They say the Way is
in this cup..." But the act of "What is the true nature of this cup? They say the Way is in this
cup..." is happening right now, this act of me doing this, it's not happening because of the cup, is
it? If you just know where this act is happening and what this act is, then that's it. That's it. The
confirmation of your own existence does not happen through an object. The confirmation of your
own existence is simply confirmed in the fact that you always exist. After all, because I exist, this
cup also exists.
Question: As I've lived, both physically and mentally, everything changes, but when I think about
what doesn't change, it's this vividness, this consciousness, this being alive... Even when you
get older, they say you feel love as intensely as when you were young, and that this sense of
being alive persists. I completely understand that, and I wonder if it's only this "being alive" that
doesn't change.
Answer: If you say, "Yes, only this being alive doesn't change, and everything else changes...,"
then you've grasped it conceptually. Then, what is "being alive" truly? You need to directly
confirm what being alive is, not just conceptually.
Question: So, if I confirm that, all my problems will be solved, right?
Answer: That's right. They'll be solved all at once. The problems themselves never truly existed
in the first place.
Question: Then it's useless to ask for solutions to the difficulties I'm currently experiencing in life,
right?
Answer: Those are all symptomatic treatments, not fundamental cures. It’s like constantly
stirring waves in your own mind, and then asking someone else to teach you how to calm them.
Sure, others might help block the wind blowing from outside. But the waves you stir up
yourself... only you can calm those.
Now, if you think calming the mind means sitting still like in meditation, that’s a mistake.
Consciousness never stays still. It’s like water—when stimulated, it inevitably moves. Fluidity is
its nature. As long as we’re alive, we can’t remain untouched by external stimuli. Like flowing
water, we live by encountering countless conditions—and that means we’re bound to be stirred.
So sitting quietly and hoping the mind will settle is just treating the symptoms. It’s like pouring
water in a container and sealing it with a lid. But the nature of water is to flow. Humans are the
same. You could lock yourself in a room and sit motionless, but that’s not how we live. Unlike
water, even when we’re still, thoughts arise. That arising is part of our nature. Trying to suppress
it—to stop it from arising—is simply not possible.
Question: Then even those who’ve had deep realizations... their thoughts must still arise, right?
Answer: Yes, they all arise. They're also human, after all...
Question: Then what's the difference? Especially in situations of pain or awkwardness, rather
than pleasure...
Answer: But that difference can’t be explained in words. Whether someone has experienced it or
not, thoughts still arise. But it’s as if they don’t. They arise, yet it feels as though they don’t
Question: Does that mean it's not painful? Does it mean you don't feel those things?
Answer: The various phenomena that usually come with those thoughts don’t really impact me.
It’s like water being violently stirred, yet the movement doesn’t disturb me.
Question: So the feeling is always a state of calmness, I suppose?
Answer: That's right.
Question: Always...
Answer: It's always stable and calm. Even when speaking furiously, it's always calm.
Question: Will death be like that too? Even in the face of my death? Or the death of others...
Answer: That's right. It's always calm and composed. The effect of that state can’t be described
in words, nor imagined. Until you taste it for yourself, no amount of explanation can truly convey
it.
Question: But once you’ve tasted it, it feels so good that you want to go deeper, right? Please
tell me it's good... (laughs)... because it's very difficult and hard for me now...
Answer: The difficulties you had when you didn't know this will lighten. All those difficulties will
lighten.
Question: More than anything else, I feel weakest in front of people. Perhaps because I've
always been conscious of others and lived focused on them...
Answer: That's right. People always torment us more than inanimate objects. We are very easily
swayed by people. The sway caused by people is so deeply rooted that it doesn't disappear
immediately even after this experience; it disappears slowly, but it does lighten. You become
much freer from the influence of people around you. It doesn't feel burdensome anymore.
Question: I long for freedom.
Answer: Because we don't know the true taste of freedom, we try to cling on a more spectacular
way... (laughs)
Question: Exactly. I thought creating something might be a way to resolve my questions. And
while I’m immersed in it, I can forget for a while. But once it’s over, the same problems are still
waiting for me.
Answer: They say if you’re troubled, immerse yourself in work—because while you’re focused,
you forget. But that’s just forgetting, not resolving. It’s symptomatic relief. Like when a child gets
a painful shot, and someone slaps their hips to distract them—so they don’t feel the pain. Most
things are like that. But that’s not a fundamental cure.
Question: (Sighs) So, there's only one thing, then. This heavy and stifled feeling...
Answer: That’s why you have to carry that stifled, deep yearning with you. Listen to dharma
talks, reflect in your own way, and live through these moments. Then, slowly—without even
realizing it—you begin to change. Like a chick hatching from an egg. The moment of hatching is
sudden, but the transformation leading up to it takes time.
Question: Earlier, when you were giving a dharma talk, you used an analogy and kept repeating
"That's it," "That's it" for about five minutes. At that moment, I felt a jolt. I also felt something
physically different from what I had thought before, so I wondered if my body was feeling that
too. Could that also be a kind of good sign...?
Answer: Anyway, the study of the mind isn't done externally. Even if others don't know whether
you're studying or not, it should always be a main concern for you. While maintaining a
harmonious social life and not outwardly revealing much, this should be your priority. You have
to do it that way; otherwise, you’ll end up using 'study' as an excuse to neglect life itself.
Question: I need to pay attention, but when I'm living my social life, I forget. Even if I try to hold
onto that question, I get swept away and forget it in an instant.
Answer: Rather than holding onto it, if it truly becomes a concern for you, it won't be forgotten.
You need to reach that state. Consciously holding onto something cannot be the way to study
the mind...
Question: You always talk about the same thing, just one thing. Does that also affect people?
Answer: Right. It’s not about understanding words through explanation—it’s more like picking up
on subtle cues. And through that, a person begins to change, little by little. Understanding the
words literally is easy—you hear them a few times and you get it. But real change? That’s not
easy. People don’t change easily. They grasp the meaning quickly, but they don’t transform just
because they understand meanings.
Question: I’ve felt that too. When I didn’t know anything about this, I was constantly dragged
around by life. But then I heard someone say, ‘This reality is like a dream. It feels vivid, but it’s
not real.’ And somehow, daily life started to feel lighter. After hearing that everything is created
by consciousness, something shifted.
Answer: That comfort you feel is actually just another trick of consciousness...
Question: That's right. It's consciousness suppressing consciousness... but it still feels more
comfortable.
Answer: Yes, even that can bring some relief. But it’s not enough. Generally, what people call
the study of the mind teaches only this level of spiritual practice. But that’s not how it should be.
Question: So if I pursue this path hoping for some benefit, it won’t work?
Answer: You shouldn't expect anything. You just need to be thirsty for this, without any
conditions.
Question: At first, I wanted to ask how to ease the pain I constantly feel – how hard it is to meet
people, how much I struggle with myself, but I'm too embarrassed to ask now. I know now that's
not what it's about...
Answer: It's not symptomatic treatment. Those symptomatic treatments can be answered
through general counseling programs.
Question: So, it's just about "What is the truth?" and that's it?
Answer: You just have to be thirsty for it without any conditions. If you attach any conditions, you
will inevitably go in the wrong direction.
Question: "What is the truth?" Is this really the only thing?
Answer: (laughs) If you know this one thing, everything is resolved. My existence is singular; it's
not complex.
Question: But perhaps because I live in such a complex world, I'm suspicious of simple things?
Answer: (laughs) That's our illness. The Tao Te Ching also says that study is "損之又損" (loss
upon loss), constantly subtracting until it's empty, until there's nothing, becoming the simplest...
The reason it talks about that is because it is originally a simple unity. There is only one.
So if you keep engaging with this sincerely, you may find yourself drawn deeper without even
realizing it. But you can’t force it. And if you approach it with a specific intention, you’ll end up
chasing that intention instead. That’s not real study. You have to hold this as “your life’s task”—
without any conditions. That’s the only way.
Question: Could you please explain what you mean by "mind," Master?
Answer: The word “mind” is just a name. It's merely a name, and the only way to truly
understand it is through direct personal experience. It can never be grasped through
explanation. No matter how it's explained, the mind cannot be known that way—it can only be
known through experience. Scriptures and the sayings of monks all attempt to explain the mind,
but they differ from one another, and none of them are entirely accurate. That’s because each
teaching was given as a kind of medicine, tailored to the listener’s needs. So the mind is not
something that can be conceptually grasped or explained in words. To truly grasp the mind, one
must have the right attitude—a sincere desire to know it. What we call “the study of the mind” is
essentially about correcting that attitude. At first, people usually try to understand the mind
through knowledge or concepts. But the purpose of the study of the mind is to correct that
approach, because such an attitude cannot lead to true understanding.
The genuine desire to know the mind is like a child who longs for a toy so much that they can’t
sleep at night. When that kind of yearning arises, one can begin to recognize the mind within
oneself. That’s what it is—not something that can be defined or described as “this” or “that.” So
this study of the mind is not something that can be achieved by reading many books or listening
to many teachings. It depends entirely on one’s own attitude.
Question: Is there no other way than having that deep yearning to know?
Answer: That's right. Nothing else is required. Even if someone lives with a certain level of
wealth, family, or fame—according to the values most people hold—what truly matters is not
those external things. It’s more like a vague yearning, a question about one’s own existence: “Is
the value of my life really found in these things? Or could it be within myself?” A person who
carries such questions in daily life—who wonders whether there might be a deeper, inner value
beyond worldly concerns like earning money, gaining recognition, or managing family affairs—is
someone who can truly engage in this study of the mind.
Otherwise, it just remains as knowledge. Like merely scratching the surface of a watermelon
without tasting what’s inside.
Question: In my case, since adolescence, I have often asked myself, “Who is the true me?” But I
could not find an answer at the time, and that question faded as I moved on to college and then
into working life. I didn’t really have the space to think deeply, and I feel like I was swept along
by the flow of things. Before achieving something, I was busy chasing it, and once I achieved it,
I felt empty. That same pattern kept repeating—a sense of incompleteness, always having to
chase something else. In the end, I came to believe, “There is no such thing as truth.” That’s
how I’ve lived until now. But when you speak with such certainty—saying “This is it!”—I find
myself half-believing, half-doubting. I wonder if something like that really exists... My thirst is not
completely quenched, and I still don’t feel convinced.
Answer: This is how our worldly life tends to go. We dive into each task with the vague hope
that, “Once this is over, maybe I’ll be happy and fulfilled.” We pour all our energy into it, and
when it’s done, there’s a fleeting joy—but it quickly fades, and everything feels the same again.
Nothing has truly changed. Then we think, “I guess I need to take on something else now.” And
before long, just as you said, we find ourselves thinking, “No matter what I do, it’s all the same.
There’s nothing particularly special about life.” And so we end up living with a sense of
resignation.
Question: I feel a bit uneasy even as I give up.
Answer: It's true that you give up but remain dissatisfied. It's not that you stopped because you
were satisfied. You gave up because you couldn't find a way to make it fulfilling, even though you were dissatisfied.
Ultimately, the solution to all these problems of life does not come from outside. For example, no
matter how high you pursue honor and reach the top, you're not fully satisfied there. No matter
how much money you earn, you're not satisfied there either. This satisfaction can only be found
within your own inner self.
Question: I think I always had the thought, 'I can't find it outside.'
Answer: Even when we turn inward, we often gravitate toward things like art, philosophy, or
literature. We mistakenly think that these are the inner self. We delve into philosophical inquiries
to acquire grand theories, or we examine various aspects of human psychology and life through
literature and art, and mistakenly believe that we've somehow grasped the entirety of life. But
that's an illusion.
Question: After I write something, I don't look at it. I don't want to see it. It feels like it's not it...
Answer: Exactly. While you're doing it, you're driven by curiosity and the desire to explore. But
once it's done, there's an emptiness. You avoid looking at it because deep down, you know it’s
not 'it.‘
Question: So I end up thinking it’s because I lacked the ability to express it fully. That I wasn’t
skilled enough...
Answer: In art or philosophy, there's no such thing as completion in terms of the work's quality or
theoretical depth. There isn't, but we expect completion.
Question: That's right! I always have that thirst...
Answer: It's like always striving with the thought that there's some kind of completion, but I lack
the ability to reach it.
Question: With the thought that something real will come out someday...
Answer: That's right. "It'll happen someday..." But why can't there be completion? Because it's
something created and manipulated by humans. It's the Tower of Babel. Because it's created, no
matter how high you stack it, if you build 100 stories, the 101st floor is waiting next, so there's no
end.
Question: Really? Is that true?
Answer: When it comes to things we create—yes. Think about it. It’s simple logic. If someone
has been creating something for 30 years, someone who’s been creating for 31 years will have
produced more. If humans lived 80, 100, or even 200 years, the volume and depth of what they
create would naturally be different. In the end, it’s not that we lack the ability to finish—it’s that
we run out of time. That’s why there’s no completion. Even if we lived a thousand years, it would
be the same. What humans create is endless. You might think you've completed something, but
when you look back years later, you realize: there’s no such thing as completion.
Question: Why do humans live that way?
Answer: The reason we are compelled to pursue endlessly is because the first button was
fastened incorrectly.
Question: But most people...
Answer: Not most, but 100% are like that. So, in Christian terms, humanity was cursed by God.
It began the moment they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. In Buddhist terms, that's the starting point of sentient beings.
Question: So, being born human means that's just how it has to be...
Answer: That's right. That's a fundamental characteristic of humans. We are born with a physical
body, so we are fundamentally inclined to look external world. We cannot see our own existence
directly. We look outward. All our physical senses are designed to perceive what’s ourside.
Consequently, consciousness is also always directed outward. Based on what we absorb
through our senses, we keep constructing images. That’s the basic mechanism of our
consciousness.
Question: So you're saying we endlessly create things using sensory input as raw material?
Answer: That's right. Endlessly... That's the mechanism of consciousness. As beings born with
physical bodies, we rely on sensory perception to survive. And as we live, our consciousness
follows that path—seeing, hearing, smelling, touching—and from those inputs, we think, judge,
and make sense of the world. We combine and assemble these differentiated sensory elements
into mental images. What we call a worldview is essentially built from that, isn't it? And within
that framework, we try to create something more harmonious, more desirable, more plausible.
That’s what we call philosophy, art, and other cultural activities. But when we look at reality as it
is—human society—through the lens of the values we’ve learned, it often appears absurd. We
may not know exactly what that absurdity is, but we feel dissatisfied. So we try to transform that
dissatisfaction into something more satisfying. We believe we can do that by continuously
controlling, adjusting, or changing the external world.
But is that really possible? You might be able to decorate and change your own room as you
please. But even with your family, that’s not so easy—because they’re other people. So the idea
of changing the world is, frankly, unrealistic.
Then we think: if we can’t change the outside world, maybe we should change our thoughts.
Since we can’t control external things to make them satisfying, and no matter how much we
think about it, no clear answer emerges, the final conclusion we reach is to change our own
thinking.
In other words, if the environment won’t change, we try to adapt to it. But adapting means giving
up part of ourselves, and that brings various sufferings. The dissatisfaction still remains. So
even that isn’t a true solution. The problems of life can’t be solved by any method we
consciously come up with. Religion offers a different kind of solution. It teaches us to let go—not
just externally, but internally as well. We must abandon our own desires.
But that doesn’t mean we should blindly accept unreasonable situations. Let go, yes—but don’t
let go of the desperate hope that there’s a way out. Even if we can’t do anything, we still want
solve this. If you feel that way, you'll experience deep agony, and when you're in such a situation
and it ripens to a certain extent, a solution will emerge on its own.
That's what I mean by "deep yearning." That solution doesn't come from our conscious mind.
The solution emerges in a way that is utterly unimaginable and completely unexpected.
Suddenly, all the burdens that were weighing you down, all the burdens you were carrying, are
resolved all at once, as if they've disappeared.
Question: Is it possible with just that deep yearning for such a solution?
Answer: There's nothing else. That's the only method.
Question: So, even in daily life, all I need is that deep yearning, asking "What is that solution?"
Answer: If you have a deep yearning, you'll unconsciously search in various ways. You'll feel
frustrated if you just sit still, even with a deep yearning... So you come to a Seon center, read books, and if there's a great teacher somewhere, you seek them out and ask questions.
Question: But you don't give specific explanations, do you? You say it can't be put into words...
Answer: Actually, I can't give it to you. It's absolutely impossible. You already possess it. No one
else can give it to you. That solution, so to speak, is an experience of your own existence. Who
possesses your existence if not yourself? The reason we wander around externally is because
we don't know our own existence. No one can give you the recognition of your own existence.
There's no other way than to confirm it yourself. Since you've only been chasing outwardly until
now, my role is to guide you to turn your direction inward.
Question: Besides Buddhist scriptures, for example, the Bible, can we say that all scriptures tell
the same story?
Answer: Yes, they're the same. It's exactly the content I just explained. In conclusion, they are
all talking about this.
However, if you only look at the words written there, it's like in Buddhism, where the Buddha's
words are often said to be a finger pointing to the moon, but foolish sentient beings see only the
finger and not the moon. Generally, people only look at the words written there, only at the
finger, and fail to see what the words are pointing to. That's a problem. So, if you just read books
and say, "Christianity is like this," or "Islam is like this," you're merely talking about the finger.
Question: I want to see the moon, but it is not easy...
Answer: If you want to see the moon, it doesn't happen overnight. As the saying goes, "Great
talent takes time to ripen." You have to invest your life, your whole being, over many years. So,
don't be hasty. Take it slow, but with a deep yearning and strong faith. Believe: "Someday, it will
happen. If it’s possible at all, then it’s possible for me too." It's like climbing a high mountain: you
have to look straight ahead and take one step at a time. There's no need to look at how far
others have climbed; that will only drain your strength. If you keep going, looking only ahead,
you'll only see the path, and then suddenly, at some moment, the view will open up. That
moment will come. You have to keep going until then.
Question: Some people say they achieved enlightenment just by hearing a single line from a
text someone else read...
Answer: That person has already come a long way in that manner over a long period. It doesn't
happen by chance. Someone who’s been quietly preparing for years—who’s built the right
foundation—only needs a single spark. There’s a saying: 'Pecking from inside and tapping from
outside must happen at the same time.' An egg doesn’t hatch suddenly. It takes time and the
right conditions.
Question: I think I misunderstood at first. I thought some people just get it quickly, and others
never do, no matter how hard they try...
Answer: (laughs) There’s always a reason why something doesn’t happen. Think about it—if you
leave an egg in the refrigerator, no matter how long you wait, it won’t hatch. There’s a reason
behind every failure.
Question: Can you recommend any books that might inspire me?
Answer: There aren't that many books worth reading. You shouldn't just read any book. There
are actually very few good books. Why? Because most books come from human thought—from
reasoning. And they lead you deeper into reasoning. When we read, we become familiar with
the mind of the author. Books generated from thoughts only train more thought. They don’t bring
you to this very place. You need books written from this very place—not from thought. But few
people have truly experienced this very place. And even fewer have written about it without mixing in their own thoughts. People who don’t know this very place tend to read many books,
but all they’re doing is practicing thought—not encountering true reality.
Question: So, does reading books related to this topic in daily life help with this study of the
mind?
Answer: If you’re aware that understanding something intellectually from a book isn’t the same
as true learning, then it’s okay. You’ll read, but you won’t be chasing knowledge. Instead, you’ll
read with a deep yearning—‘There’s something here, but I don’t quite grasp it.’ That yearning
itself is what helps. The knowledge doesn’t help at all. The best analogy is waking up from a
dream. Imagine you’re having a nightmare and you desperately want to wake up. Life feels like
that nightmare—unsatisfying, and you want out. So in the dream, you try all sorts of things to
wake up: you pinch yourself, you scream... but do you wake up? No. Because all of that is still
part of the dream. No method will wake you up. But when the frustration in that nightmare
reaches its peak, at some point, you'll suddenly wake up without even realizing it, not through a
method. Your eyes will just snap open.
Question: But I think that to have such a deep yearning, you need to have a firm belief that such
a solution definitely exists. If you’re unsure—‘Does such a thing even exist?’—your heart doesn’t
fully commit. But if you’re certain it’s real, then you’ll start searching for it...
Answer: (laughs) 100% certain faith only comes from confirming it yourself. For thousands of
years, countless people have said this, and it's written in various scriptures. However, no person
or scripture can make you believe with absolute certainty. If someone says, 'I’ll only pursue this
path if I’m 100% convinced. Someone must prove to me that this is real before I begin,' then
there’s no possibility—because there’s no way to provide that kind of proof.
Question: So I guess... it has to be a matter of connection of timing.
Answer: Exactly. Your heart has to move on its own...
Question: They say that everything—every being, every object—contains mind, Buddha-nature,
or divinity. Even animals. Is that essence really seeped into all things?
Answer: It is seeped—but it’s not something you can verify by examining individual objects.
Once you’ve confirmed it, you realize there’s nothing that isn’t it. But before that confirmation, it’s
not something you can discover through scientific methods—observation, experimentation, or
deep analysis.
Question: So, it's not something that can be solved by looking outward. It's by looking at myself,
within myself...
Answer: "Looking within myself" isn't actually the most accurate expression either. "Looking at
myself" already objectifies myself. You shouldn't look at it as an object. Simply put, (picking up
the teacup in front) you might inquire, "What is the true nature of this cup? They say the Way is
in this cup..." But the act of "What is the true nature of this cup? They say the Way is in this
cup..." is happening right now, this act of me doing this, it's not happening because of the cup, is
it? If you just know where this act is happening and what this act is, then that's it. That's it. The
confirmation of your own existence does not happen through an object. The confirmation of your
own existence is simply confirmed in the fact that you always exist. After all, because I exist, this
cup also exists.
Question: As I've lived, both physically and mentally, everything changes, but when I think about
what doesn't change, it's this vividness, this consciousness, this being alive... Even when you
get older, they say you feel love as intensely as when you were young, and that this sense of
being alive persists. I completely understand that, and I wonder if it's only this "being alive" that
doesn't change.
Answer: If you say, "Yes, only this being alive doesn't change, and everything else changes...,"
then you've grasped it conceptually. Then, what is "being alive" truly? You need to directly
confirm what being alive is, not just conceptually.
Question: So, if I confirm that, all my problems will be solved, right?
Answer: That's right. They'll be solved all at once. The problems themselves never truly existed
in the first place.
Question: Then it's useless to ask for solutions to the difficulties I'm currently experiencing in life,
right?
Answer: Those are all symptomatic treatments, not fundamental cures. It’s like constantly
stirring waves in your own mind, and then asking someone else to teach you how to calm them.
Sure, others might help block the wind blowing from outside. But the waves you stir up
yourself... only you can calm those.
Now, if you think calming the mind means sitting still like in meditation, that’s a mistake.
Consciousness never stays still. It’s like water—when stimulated, it inevitably moves. Fluidity is
its nature. As long as we’re alive, we can’t remain untouched by external stimuli. Like flowing
water, we live by encountering countless conditions—and that means we’re bound to be stirred.
So sitting quietly and hoping the mind will settle is just treating the symptoms. It’s like pouring
water in a container and sealing it with a lid. But the nature of water is to flow. Humans are the
same. You could lock yourself in a room and sit motionless, but that’s not how we live. Unlike
water, even when we’re still, thoughts arise. That arising is part of our nature. Trying to suppress
it—to stop it from arising—is simply not possible.
Question: Then even those who’ve had deep realizations... their thoughts must still arise, right?
Answer: Yes, they all arise. They're also human, after all...
Question: Then what's the difference? Especially in situations of pain or awkwardness, rather
than pleasure...
Answer: But that difference can’t be explained in words. Whether someone has experienced it or
not, thoughts still arise. But it’s as if they don’t. They arise, yet it feels as though they don’t
Question: Does that mean it's not painful? Does it mean you don't feel those things?
Answer: The various phenomena that usually come with those thoughts don’t really impact me.
It’s like water being violently stirred, yet the movement doesn’t disturb me.
Question: So the feeling is always a state of calmness, I suppose?
Answer: That's right.
Question: Always...
Answer: It's always stable and calm. Even when speaking furiously, it's always calm.
Question: Will death be like that too? Even in the face of my death? Or the death of others...
Answer: That's right. It's always calm and composed. The effect of that state can’t be described
in words, nor imagined. Until you taste it for yourself, no amount of explanation can truly convey
it.
Question: But once you’ve tasted it, it feels so good that you want to go deeper, right? Please
tell me it's good... (laughs)... because it's very difficult and hard for me now...
Answer: The difficulties you had when you didn't know this will lighten. All those difficulties will
lighten.
Question: More than anything else, I feel weakest in front of people. Perhaps because I've
always been conscious of others and lived focused on them...
Answer: That's right. People always torment us more than inanimate objects. We are very easily
swayed by people. The sway caused by people is so deeply rooted that it doesn't disappear
immediately even after this experience; it disappears slowly, but it does lighten. You become
much freer from the influence of people around you. It doesn't feel burdensome anymore.
Question: I long for freedom.
Answer: Because we don't know the true taste of freedom, we try to cling on a more spectacular
way... (laughs)
Question: Exactly. I thought creating something might be a way to resolve my questions. And
while I’m immersed in it, I can forget for a while. But once it’s over, the same problems are still
waiting for me.
Answer: They say if you’re troubled, immerse yourself in work—because while you’re focused,
you forget. But that’s just forgetting, not resolving. It’s symptomatic relief. Like when a child gets
a painful shot, and someone slaps their hips to distract them—so they don’t feel the pain. Most
things are like that. But that’s not a fundamental cure.
Question: (Sighs) So, there's only one thing, then. This heavy and stifled feeling...
Answer: That’s why you have to carry that stifled, deep yearning with you. Listen to dharma
talks, reflect in your own way, and live through these moments. Then, slowly—without even
realizing it—you begin to change. Like a chick hatching from an egg. The moment of hatching is
sudden, but the transformation leading up to it takes time.
Question: Earlier, when you were giving a dharma talk, you used an analogy and kept repeating
"That's it," "That's it" for about five minutes. At that moment, I felt a jolt. I also felt something
physically different from what I had thought before, so I wondered if my body was feeling that
too. Could that also be a kind of good sign...?
Answer: Anyway, the study of the mind isn't done externally. Even if others don't know whether
you're studying or not, it should always be a main concern for you. While maintaining a
harmonious social life and not outwardly revealing much, this should be your priority. You have
to do it that way; otherwise, you’ll end up using 'study' as an excuse to neglect life itself.
Question: I need to pay attention, but when I'm living my social life, I forget. Even if I try to hold
onto that question, I get swept away and forget it in an instant.
Answer: Rather than holding onto it, if it truly becomes a concern for you, it won't be forgotten.
You need to reach that state. Consciously holding onto something cannot be the way to study
the mind...
Question: You always talk about the same thing, just one thing. Does that also affect people?
Answer: Right. It’s not about understanding words through explanation—it’s more like picking up
on subtle cues. And through that, a person begins to change, little by little. Understanding the
words literally is easy—you hear them a few times and you get it. But real change? That’s not
easy. People don’t change easily. They grasp the meaning quickly, but they don’t transform just
because they understand meanings.
Question: I’ve felt that too. When I didn’t know anything about this, I was constantly dragged
around by life. But then I heard someone say, ‘This reality is like a dream. It feels vivid, but it’s
not real.’ And somehow, daily life started to feel lighter. After hearing that everything is created
by consciousness, something shifted.
Answer: That comfort you feel is actually just another trick of consciousness...
Question: That's right. It's consciousness suppressing consciousness... but it still feels more
comfortable.
Answer: Yes, even that can bring some relief. But it’s not enough. Generally, what people call
the study of the mind teaches only this level of spiritual practice. But that’s not how it should be.
Question: So if I pursue this path hoping for some benefit, it won’t work?
Answer: You shouldn't expect anything. You just need to be thirsty for this, without any
conditions.
Question: At first, I wanted to ask how to ease the pain I constantly feel – how hard it is to meet
people, how much I struggle with myself, but I'm too embarrassed to ask now. I know now that's
not what it's about...
Answer: It's not symptomatic treatment. Those symptomatic treatments can be answered
through general counseling programs.
Question: So, it's just about "What is the truth?" and that's it?
Answer: You just have to be thirsty for it without any conditions. If you attach any conditions, you
will inevitably go in the wrong direction.
Question: "What is the truth?" Is this really the only thing?
Answer: (laughs) If you know this one thing, everything is resolved. My existence is singular; it's
not complex.
Question: But perhaps because I live in such a complex world, I'm suspicious of simple things?
Answer: (laughs) That's our illness. The Tao Te Ching also says that study is "損之又損" (loss
upon loss), constantly subtracting until it's empty, until there's nothing, becoming the simplest...
The reason it talks about that is because it is originally a simple unity. There is only one.
So if you keep engaging with this sincerely, you may find yourself drawn deeper without even
realizing it. But you can’t force it. And if you approach it with a specific intention, you’ll end up
chasing that intention instead. That’s not real study. You have to hold this as “your life’s task”—
without any conditions. That’s the only way.