BTN Open Forum Interview with Master Kim TaeWan (2013)
ย
Moderator: Announcer Kim MoonJuย
Interviewee: Master Kim TaeWan, Head of Musim Seon Center
ย
Moderator: Hello. I'm Kim MoonJu from BTN Open Forum. They say that today was born from the thoughts of yesterday, and tomorrow is created by the thoughts of today. If the driving force that shapes our lives is the mind, then where exactly should we seek this mind of ours? Today, I will provide you with the answer.
Today, we have invited Master Kim TaeWan, head of Musim Seon Center, who illuminates the essence of Patriarchal Seon (Josaseon) and Hwadu Seon (Ganhwaseon), the two major currents of Korean Buddhism. We will share some words with him.
ย
Master, welcome. It's a pleasure to have you.
ย
Master: Hello.
ย
Moderator: Master, you are leading Musim Seon Center for a long time. Could you please begin by introducing it to us?
ย
Master: Sure. Musim Seon Center was first established in Busan in 2002. A second center opened in Seoul in 2008, followed by the Daegu center in 2017. In 2025, the Seoul center was newly reopened at the Namsan sports center. Today, practitioners continue their study of the mind across our centers in Busan, Daegu, and Seoul.
ย
Moderator: Iโve often heard that Musim Seon Center follows the idea that โJosaseon is not about practice, but about Dharma talks.โ How is it different from traditional Seon centers?
ย
Master: Generally, when people think of a Seon center, they imagine a place where one sits in meditation. But at our center, we focus on Dharma talks. We guide people to study the mind by listening to the teachings. We donโt require seated meditation or koan contemplation (Hwadu chamgu). Instead, through listening to the Dharma talks, we help people directly experience Seon.
ย
Moderator: So, if I understand correctly, it's not about the usual seated meditation or koan practice, but "listening to Dharma talks is everything." Is that right? If so, could you define what you consider "Josaseon" to be?
ย
Master: In short, Josaseon is โthe most effective medicine and the shortcut to liberation.โ Historically, Josaseon was transmitted to China by Bodhidharma, and later greatly revived by the Sixth Patriarch Huineng. Itโs called Josaseon because it was passed down by the ancestral masters, but its essence is captured in the phrase: โDirectly point to the mind, see oneโs nature, and become Buddha.โ This is also the foundational principle of the Jogye Order in Korea, which inherited Huinengโs lineage. โDirectly pointing to the mindโ means that a true teacher points straight to our mind without detour. Through such guidance, one may awaken to their mind, experience it, or confirm itโwhatever word you choose. Thatโs the kind of realization we aim for.
ย
Moderator: Is that easily possible?
ย
Master: Well, it's not a matter of easy or difficult, but as they say, "where there's a will, there's a way," right? Since it's ultimately a matter of our own mind, if you truly desire it, it's not difficult.
ย
Moderator: Just like a thirsty person digs a well, if one has sincere yearning, itโs certainly possible. You mentioned the Sixth Patriarch Huineng earlier, and this year marks the 1300th anniversary of his Nirvana. Would it be accurate to say that Josaseon carries on the living spirit of Huinengโs thought?
ย
Master: Well, when we speak of โthoughtโ or โtheory,โ we often mean ideas, concepts, or viewpoints. But Huineng didnโt leave behind any thought in that sense. Josaseon is often described with the phrase โtransmission from mind to mind.โ Itโs a living Dharma passed directly from mind to mindโnot a system of thought or theory.
ย
Moderator: Ah! So, it's not something with a fixed framework.
ย
Master: Exactly. Thereโs no theory involved. Our mind is alive in every person, in every moment. Josaseon points directly to that living mind, guiding people to awaken to it. And itโs something one must study the mind and realize it for oneself.
ย
Moderator: You have given Dharma talks in Busan and have also opened a center in Seoul. Was there a special reason for establishing Musim Seon Center?
ย
Master: I originally studied philosophy in university, and then pursued Buddhist studies in graduate school. But I found that theoretical study alone wasnโt fulfilling. So during my doctoral program, I shifted toward Seon practice. Fortunately, I met my teacherโwho was giving Dharma talks at the time. I listened to those talks for several years and eventually had my own Seon experience. That experience became the foundation for my doctoral dissertation.
In Seon tradition, there are a few important books, and one of them is The Letters of Dahui Zonggao. I interpreted that contents through the lens of Seon and serialized it in the Modern Buddhism Newspaper around 2001, for about a year. After that, people who read the series began reaching out and visiting me. So I started giving Dharma talks to them. At the time, I was teaching at Busan National University, so I borrowed a lecture room there to give the Dharma talks. That was the beginningโand eventually, it led to the founding of Musim Seon Center.
ย
Moderator: I see. It sounds like Musim Seon Center operates a bit differently from the typical Seon centers weโre familiar with.
ย
Master: We don't have special programs. For example, in the Busan Seon center, we have regular Dharma assemblies on Wednesdays and Saturdays. And in the Seoul Seon center, we have a regular Dharma assembly every Sunday. If you attend these regular Dharma assemblies and listen to the Dharma talks, that's our regular program. Additionally, every spring, summer, autumn, and winter, we gather for four special intensive practice sessions (Jeongjinbeophoe) where we stay and eat together. These sessions last for two nights and three days or three nights and four days, and that's our special program.
ย
We donโt have special programs in the usual sense. In Busan, we hold regular Dharma gatherings on Saturdays. In Daegu, we have weekly Dharma talks on Tuesday. In Seoul, Dharma talks are given every Sunday. If you attend these regular Dharma gatherings and listen to the Dharma talks, that's our regular program. In addition, four times a yearโspring, summer, fall, and winterโwe hold intensive sessions (Jeongjinbeophoe) where we stay and eat together. These are 3-night and 4-day gatherings where participants focus deeply on Dharma talks. That would be our special program.
ย
Moderator: So, those living in Busan attend the regular Dharma gatherings in Busan, and those in Seoul attend in Seoul. But for those who don't have much time but really want to attend, they can participate in the intensive sessions.
ย
Master: That's right. For those living outside the Busan, Daegu or Seoul areas, or even for those in Busan, Daegu and Seoul who find it difficult to make time normally, they can come to the intensive sessions.
ย
Moderator: Earlier, you briefly mentioned that studying at Musim Seon Center primarily involves listening to Dharma talks. I'm curious if one can truly gain understanding just by listening to Dharma talks without relying on any specific practice methods.
ย
Master: I get these kinds of questions quite often. People usually talk about various practice methods like seated meditation, entering samadhi, reciting mantras, studying sutras, or prostrating. They ask, "How can one have an experience just by listening to Dharma talks, without any specific practice method, at Musim Seon Center?" Originally, any practice, regardless of its form, aims to awaken one's own mind. And one's own mind is something we always fully possess. Therefore, one can awaken directly without relying on any other means. In fact, relying on methods is a roundabout way, and Josaseon has long been referred to as a "shortcut."
ย
Moderator: So, it's a direct path?
ย
Master: Yes, it's a direct, straight shortcut.
ย
Moderator: In that case, since Josaseon is a direct path and not a roundabout one, are there any tips or methods for listening to Dharma talks effectively?
ย
Master: There are no special tips or methods, but first and foremost, curiosity about the Dharma is essential. Generally, those who engage in this study either begin with a strong curiosity about the Dharma and a genuine yearning, or they've had a subtle, lifelong curiosity about their true nature, even without knowing what Buddhism is, and they enter this path of mind study. But regardless of how one develops this yearning, the ultimate destination is to quiet all the defilements, delusions, worries, and anxieties of one's own being. If you have that yearning, just listen to the Dharma talks with that deep yearning. However, you have a lot of existing knowledge from what you've seen, heard, and learned, don't you?
ย
Moderator: That's right. We have a lot in our heads.
ย
Master: Then you can't escape the limits of what you already know.
ย
Moderator: So, what you know becomes a blocking obstacle?
ย
Master: Precisely. Your own views, thoughts, and concepts are the biggest obstacles to your study. If you let go of those, and simply focus on the Dharma talk of the speaker, paying attention to "what are they trying to say?" and "what are they pointing to?", then you can transcend your own limitations.
ย
ย
Moderator: It seems we can say that Buddhism cures the afflictions and delusions of our minds. Have there been actual cases of people who have experienced positive effects after listening to Dharma talks at Musim Seon Center, people who were burdened by various afflictions and delusions?
ย
Master: These are very common questions. One of the first effects people notice after attending our Dharma talks is that their scattered various thoughts begin to quiet downโnaturally and effortlessly. Without even realizing it, their mental noise quiets down. Of course, the central questionโwhat we might call oneโs true mind, Dharma, or essenceโstill remains unresolved. But the miscellaneous thoughts they carried begin to loosen just by listening Dharma talks. Eventually, their focus naturally converges on this single point. And when they continue to hold onto that one question with sincere yearning, what we call sijeol inyeonโthe right time and conditionsโcomes into play. Just like flowers bloom in spring, the mind opens when the time is ripe. We sometimes say, โthe bottom of the barrel drops out.โ Thatโs the kind of experience that comes. And when it does, the person knows. They feel as if theyโve laid down all their burdens and resolved their inner conflict.
ย
Moderator: Aha, I see. So it can't happen easily from the beginning, but as one listens to the Dharma talks, at some point, the mind lets go, and then one can fully look at oneself.
ย
Master: Well, you can say "look at oneself," but it's more like various thoughts and concepts subside, and there's, so to speak, nothing left to do. All the obstacles, burdens, and afflictions one had, the impenetrable darkness, disappear, and one automatically feels comfortable, the world brightens before one's eyes, and one experiences that the issues they had sought to resolve have indeed been resolved. There are dozens of people who have had such experiences. Of course, having such an experience doesn't immediately mean one has the ability to guide others. After experiencing it and studying deeply for several years, one can then guide others. Several people who have had experiences at our Seon center are now holding their own gatherings and guiding others elsewhere.
ย
Moderator: I see. So, many people have, in a sense, reached enlightenment. Are there any specific precautions that those studying Patriarchal Seon should be aware of?
ย
Master: Ultimately, it's about the Dharma. Even if we have a Seon experience, the insight to see the Dharma doesn't immediately stand firmly. I can mention a few points regarding this. Because this is the Dharma, there must be correctness (yeobeopham) aligned with the Dharma. While we speak of the Dharma in various ways, we often use the term "non-duality and the middle way" (Bulijungdo). It means the Dharma of non-duality and the Dharma of the middle way. The meaning of non-duality and the middle way must be clearly realized within oneself. This means that within our minds, there should be no "this side or that side," no duality. There shouldn't be an inside and an outside, or a division into two sides where one grasps and discards, or likes and dislikes. In such a state, one won't feel satisfied. When the acts of liking and disliking, grasping and discarding, all cease, then all phenomena are naturally embraced. So, such insight must firmly be established.
However, ordinary people constantly try to gain something and grasp something. Instinctively, they try to gain and grasp, and if that habit doesn't disappear, they will ultimately grasp the Dharma itself. If one says, "I have attained the Dharma," thinking "this is the Dharma," then it becomes an attachment to the Dharma.
ย
Moderator: Attachment... yes, that's right.
ย
Master: Even attachment to the Dharma itself must be avoided. This is something practitioners should be especially mindful of. Another important point is that the words found in sutras or spoken by the ancestral masters are all skillful means. They are not the ultimate truth in themselves, but rather remediesโgiven to help heal our afflictions and delusions. Theyโre like fingers pointing to the moon. If we mistake the words of the sutras or the masters as the truth itself and become attached to specific phrases or teachings, that becomes a serious obstacle.
ย
Moderator: It seems people have so many attachments. (laughs) And Master, you have authored many books, including Reading Diamond Sutra Through Seon, The Practice and Thought of Patriarchal Seon, and more. Could you give us an overview of the books you've written?
ย
Master: The books I've written fall into two main categories. One type consists of books that are transcriptions of my recorded Dharma talks. These are less like traditional books and more like something you can read as if you're listening to ย Dharma talks. This series is called "Dharma Talks on Seon," and includes books like Dharma Talks on Diamond Sutra, Dharma Talks on Faith in Mind , and Dharma Talks on Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra. The other category consists of translations of important sayings of Patriarchal Seon masters. Of course, many of these texts are already available in the public domain, but Iโve translated them with my own perspective. Translations can vary depending on the translatorโs insight. Iโve selected and translated the works of essential figures such as the Sixth Patriarch Huineng, Master Mazu, Master Baizhang, Master Huangbo, Master Linji, Master Yuanwu Keqin, and Master Dahui Zonggao. These are the masters whose teachings I felt were most important to share.
ย
Moderator: It sounds like you must be very busy. You give Dharma talks and write books.
ย
Master: Well, I have to do it as long as my health allows.
ย
Moderator: In Seon Buddhism, there's a saying not to rely on words and letters. What role do words and letters play in Seon?
ย
Master: When we speak of Patriarchal Seon, we often refer to five key phrases found even in high school ethics textbooks: โNo reliance on words and letters (Bulipmunja),โ โSpecial transmission outside the scriptures (Gyoebeoljeon),โ โMind-to-mind transmission (Isimjeonsim),โ โDirectly pointing to the mind (Jik-ji-in-sim),โ and โSeeing oneโs nature to become Buddha (Gyeon-seong-seong-bul).โ Among these, the first twoโโNo reliance on words and lettersโ and โSpecial transmission outside the scripturesโโrelate to language. โNo reliance on words and lettersโ means that truth cannot be fully expressed through language. โScripturesโ refer to the Buddhaโs teachings, so โSpecial transmission outside the scripturesโ means the Dharma is passed on beyond written texts or letters. In other words, our mind and this truth cannot be fully captured by words or letters.
But that doesnโt mean we shouldnโt use words or letters. Words and letters serve as a skillful meansโlike a finger pointing to the moon. This idea isnโt unique to Seon. For example, in the Lotus Sutra, itโs said that while the ultimate truth is the "Eka-yana" (one vehicle), the true single vehicle, countless skillful means can be used to express it. Likewise, in teaching, learning, and communicating, words and letters are essential. Of course, there were masters like Master Guji who simply raised a finger through his whole life, or Master Banghwal who only swung his stick as his method. Those are also skillful means. But using words and letters are often the most effective way to guide others. We use them not as the truth itself, but as a tool to point toward it.
ย
Moderator: So, to realize the mind, one shouldn't be bound by words and letters, but words and letters aren't unnecessary either. It's a complex interplay.
ย
Master: Exactly.
ย
Moderator: Yes. In that case, how would you introduce Patriarchal Seon to our Buddhist practitioners? You mentioned earlier that listening to Dharma talks is sufficient, but it would be great if you could summarize it again.
ย
Master: Patriarchal Seon (Josaseon) is, strictly speaking, a historical termโa name we use as a skillful means. Ultimately, Buddhist practice is about overcoming the unease, afflictions, delusions, discomfort, and dissatisfaction within our own minds. Some people misunderstand Buddhism as a pursuit of some lofty, separate truth. But thatโs not what Buddhism is.
Afflictions and delusions are like illnesses of the bodyโblockages in the blood vessels, for example. Similarly, our minds become blocked by distorted views, attachments, and emotional reactions like liking and disliking. These blockages make the mind uncomfortable. The purpose of Buddhist practice is to release and overcome these problems, so that our minds can be free, peaceful, and fulfilled.
The goal of the Dharma isnโt some grand truth in the heavens, but rather to gain the strength to live a satisfying, comfortable life in our daily lives, unswayed by various temptations, always remaining as we are. You donโt need special knowledge or a dramatic resolution. If your mind feels unsettled, and you find no satisfaction in material or external conditions, then I encourage you to explore mind practice.ย
Of course, there are many methods and paths for the study of the mind, but theyโre not always easy. But even Master Huineng, the founder of Josaseon, awakened upon hearing a single phrase. So if you listen deeply to the Dharma, you too can find that freedom.ย
ย
Moderator: Yes. I understand. We all carry afflictions and delusions, whether we realize it or not. Todayโs conversation has offered a meaningful way to begin healing those inner struggles. Thank you sincerely for your words.
ย
Master: Thank you.
ย
Moderator: Itโs said that the countless beings living in this vast universe are like grains of sand in the Ganges River. Yet, they say that the true mind residing in this small body is the universe itself. Perhaps realizing the universe residing within my own body is the true path to enlightenment. BTN Open Forum will return next time. Thank you for watching, everyone. May you all attain Buddhahood.
ย
BTN Open Forum Interview with Master Kim TaeWan (2013)
ย
Moderator: Announcer Kim MoonJuย
Interviewee: Master Kim TaeWan, Head of Musim Seon Center
ย
Moderator: Hello. I'm Kim MoonJu from BTN Open Forum. They say that today was born from the thoughts of yesterday, and tomorrow is created by the thoughts of today. If the driving force that shapes our lives is the mind, then where exactly should we seek this mind of ours? Today, I will provide you with the answer.
Today, we have invited Master Kim TaeWan, head of Musim Seon Center, who illuminates the essence of Patriarchal Seon (Josaseon) and Hwadu Seon (Ganhwaseon), the two major currents of Korean Buddhism. We will share some words with him.
ย
Master, welcome. It's a pleasure to have you.
ย
Master: Hello.
ย
Moderator: Master, you are leading Musim Seon Center for a long time. Could you please begin by introducing it to us?
ย
Master: Sure. Musim Seon Center was first established in Busan in 2002. A second center opened in Seoul in 2008, followed by the Daegu center in 2017. In 2025, the Seoul center was newly reopened at the Namsan sports center. Today, practitioners continue their study of the mind across our centers in Busan, Daegu, and Seoul.
ย
Moderator: Iโve often heard that Musim Seon Center follows the idea that โJosaseon is not about practice, but about Dharma talks.โ How is it different from traditional Seon centers?
ย
Master: Generally, when people think of a Seon center, they imagine a place where one sits in meditation. But at our center, we focus on Dharma talks. We guide people to study the mind by listening to the teachings. We donโt require seated meditation or koan contemplation (Hwadu chamgu). Instead, through listening to the Dharma talks, we help people directly experience Seon.
ย
Moderator: So, if I understand correctly, it's not about the usual seated meditation or koan practice, but "listening to Dharma talks is everything." Is that right? If so, could you define what you consider "Josaseon" to be?
ย
Master: In short, Josaseon is โthe most effective medicine and the shortcut to liberation.โ Historically, Josaseon was transmitted to China by Bodhidharma, and later greatly revived by the Sixth Patriarch Huineng. Itโs called Josaseon because it was passed down by the ancestral masters, but its essence is captured in the phrase: โDirectly point to the mind, see oneโs nature, and become Buddha.โ This is also the foundational principle of the Jogye Order in Korea, which inherited Huinengโs lineage. โDirectly pointing to the mindโ means that a true teacher points straight to our mind without detour. Through such guidance, one may awaken to their mind, experience it, or confirm itโwhatever word you choose. Thatโs the kind of realization we aim for.
ย
Moderator: Is that easily possible?
ย
Master: Well, it's not a matter of easy or difficult, but as they say, "where there's a will, there's a way," right? Since it's ultimately a matter of our own mind, if you truly desire it, it's not difficult.
ย
Moderator: Just like a thirsty person digs a well, if one has sincere yearning, itโs certainly possible. You mentioned the Sixth Patriarch Huineng earlier, and this year marks the 1300th anniversary of his Nirvana. Would it be accurate to say that Josaseon carries on the living spirit of Huinengโs thought?
ย
Master: Well, when we speak of โthoughtโ or โtheory,โ we often mean ideas, concepts, or viewpoints. But Huineng didnโt leave behind any thought in that sense. Josaseon is often described with the phrase โtransmission from mind to mind.โ Itโs a living Dharma passed directly from mind to mindโnot a system of thought or theory.
ย
Moderator: Ah! So, it's not something with a fixed framework.
ย
Master: Exactly. Thereโs no theory involved. Our mind is alive in every person, in every moment. Josaseon points directly to that living mind, guiding people to awaken to it. And itโs something one must study the mind and realize it for oneself.
ย
Moderator: You have given Dharma talks in Busan and have also opened a center in Seoul. Was there a special reason for establishing Musim Seon Center?
ย
Master: I originally studied philosophy in university, and then pursued Buddhist studies in graduate school. But I found that theoretical study alone wasnโt fulfilling. So during my doctoral program, I shifted toward Seon practice. Fortunately, I met my teacherโwho was giving Dharma talks at the time. I listened to those talks for several years and eventually had my own Seon experience. That experience became the foundation for my doctoral dissertation.
In Seon tradition, there are a few important books, and one of them is The Letters of Dahui Zonggao. I interpreted that contents through the lens of Seon and serialized it in the Modern Buddhism Newspaper around 2001, for about a year. After that, people who read the series began reaching out and visiting me. So I started giving Dharma talks to them. At the time, I was teaching at Busan National University, so I borrowed a lecture room there to give the Dharma talks. That was the beginningโand eventually, it led to the founding of Musim Seon Center.
ย
Moderator: I see. It sounds like Musim Seon Center operates a bit differently from the typical Seon centers weโre familiar with.
ย
Master: We don't have special programs. For example, in the Busan Seon center, we have regular Dharma assemblies on Wednesdays and Saturdays. And in the Seoul Seon center, we have a regular Dharma assembly every Sunday. If you attend these regular Dharma assemblies and listen to the Dharma talks, that's our regular program. Additionally, every spring, summer, autumn, and winter, we gather for four special intensive practice sessions (Jeongjinbeophoe) where we stay and eat together. These sessions last for two nights and three days or three nights and four days, and that's our special program.
ย
We donโt have special programs in the usual sense. In Busan, we hold regular Dharma gatherings on Saturdays. In Daegu, we have weekly Dharma talks on Tuesday. In Seoul, Dharma talks are given every Sunday. If you attend these regular Dharma gatherings and listen to the Dharma talks, that's our regular program. In addition, four times a yearโspring, summer, fall, and winterโwe hold intensive sessions (Jeongjinbeophoe) where we stay and eat together. These are 3-night and 4-day gatherings where participants focus deeply on Dharma talks. That would be our special program.
ย
Moderator: So, those living in Busan attend the regular Dharma gatherings in Busan, and those in Seoul attend in Seoul. But for those who don't have much time but really want to attend, they can participate in the intensive sessions.
ย
Master: That's right. For those living outside the Busan, Daegu or Seoul areas, or even for those in Busan, Daegu and Seoul who find it difficult to make time normally, they can come to the intensive sessions.
ย
Moderator: Earlier, you briefly mentioned that studying at Musim Seon Center primarily involves listening to Dharma talks. I'm curious if one can truly gain understanding just by listening to Dharma talks without relying on any specific practice methods.
ย
Master: I get these kinds of questions quite often. People usually talk about various practice methods like seated meditation, entering samadhi, reciting mantras, studying sutras, or prostrating. They ask, "How can one have an experience just by listening to Dharma talks, without any specific practice method, at Musim Seon Center?" Originally, any practice, regardless of its form, aims to awaken one's own mind. And one's own mind is something we always fully possess. Therefore, one can awaken directly without relying on any other means. In fact, relying on methods is a roundabout way, and Josaseon has long been referred to as a "shortcut."
ย
Moderator: So, it's a direct path?
ย
Master: Yes, it's a direct, straight shortcut.
ย
Moderator: In that case, since Josaseon is a direct path and not a roundabout one, are there any tips or methods for listening to Dharma talks effectively?
ย
Master: There are no special tips or methods, but first and foremost, curiosity about the Dharma is essential. Generally, those who engage in this study either begin with a strong curiosity about the Dharma and a genuine yearning, or they've had a subtle, lifelong curiosity about their true nature, even without knowing what Buddhism is, and they enter this path of mind study. But regardless of how one develops this yearning, the ultimate destination is to quiet all the defilements, delusions, worries, and anxieties of one's own being. If you have that yearning, just listen to the Dharma talks with that deep yearning. However, you have a lot of existing knowledge from what you've seen, heard, and learned, don't you?
ย
Moderator: That's right. We have a lot in our heads.
ย
Master: Then you can't escape the limits of what you already know.
ย
Moderator: So, what you know becomes a blocking obstacle?
ย
Master: Precisely. Your own views, thoughts, and concepts are the biggest obstacles to your study. If you let go of those, and simply focus on the Dharma talk of the speaker, paying attention to "what are they trying to say?" and "what are they pointing to?", then you can transcend your own limitations.
ย
ย
Moderator: It seems we can say that Buddhism cures the afflictions and delusions of our minds. Have there been actual cases of people who have experienced positive effects after listening to Dharma talks at Musim Seon Center, people who were burdened by various afflictions and delusions?
ย
Master: These are very common questions. One of the first effects people notice after attending our Dharma talks is that their scattered various thoughts begin to quiet downโnaturally and effortlessly. Without even realizing it, their mental noise quiets down. Of course, the central questionโwhat we might call oneโs true mind, Dharma, or essenceโstill remains unresolved. But the miscellaneous thoughts they carried begin to loosen just by listening Dharma talks. Eventually, their focus naturally converges on this single point. And when they continue to hold onto that one question with sincere yearning, what we call sijeol inyeonโthe right time and conditionsโcomes into play. Just like flowers bloom in spring, the mind opens when the time is ripe. We sometimes say, โthe bottom of the barrel drops out.โ Thatโs the kind of experience that comes. And when it does, the person knows. They feel as if theyโve laid down all their burdens and resolved their inner conflict.
ย
Moderator: Aha, I see. So it can't happen easily from the beginning, but as one listens to the Dharma talks, at some point, the mind lets go, and then one can fully look at oneself.
ย
Master: Well, you can say "look at oneself," but it's more like various thoughts and concepts subside, and there's, so to speak, nothing left to do. All the obstacles, burdens, and afflictions one had, the impenetrable darkness, disappear, and one automatically feels comfortable, the world brightens before one's eyes, and one experiences that the issues they had sought to resolve have indeed been resolved. There are dozens of people who have had such experiences. Of course, having such an experience doesn't immediately mean one has the ability to guide others. After experiencing it and studying deeply for several years, one can then guide others. Several people who have had experiences at our Seon center are now holding their own gatherings and guiding others elsewhere.
ย
Moderator: I see. So, many people have, in a sense, reached enlightenment. Are there any specific precautions that those studying Patriarchal Seon should be aware of?
ย
Master: Ultimately, it's about the Dharma. Even if we have a Seon experience, the insight to see the Dharma doesn't immediately stand firmly. I can mention a few points regarding this. Because this is the Dharma, there must be correctness (yeobeopham) aligned with the Dharma. While we speak of the Dharma in various ways, we often use the term "non-duality and the middle way" (Bulijungdo). It means the Dharma of non-duality and the Dharma of the middle way. The meaning of non-duality and the middle way must be clearly realized within oneself. This means that within our minds, there should be no "this side or that side," no duality. There shouldn't be an inside and an outside, or a division into two sides where one grasps and discards, or likes and dislikes. In such a state, one won't feel satisfied. When the acts of liking and disliking, grasping and discarding, all cease, then all phenomena are naturally embraced. So, such insight must firmly be established.
However, ordinary people constantly try to gain something and grasp something. Instinctively, they try to gain and grasp, and if that habit doesn't disappear, they will ultimately grasp the Dharma itself. If one says, "I have attained the Dharma," thinking "this is the Dharma," then it becomes an attachment to the Dharma.
ย
Moderator: Attachment... yes, that's right.
ย
Master: Even attachment to the Dharma itself must be avoided. This is something practitioners should be especially mindful of. Another important point is that the words found in sutras or spoken by the ancestral masters are all skillful means. They are not the ultimate truth in themselves, but rather remediesโgiven to help heal our afflictions and delusions. Theyโre like fingers pointing to the moon. If we mistake the words of the sutras or the masters as the truth itself and become attached to specific phrases or teachings, that becomes a serious obstacle.
ย
Moderator: It seems people have so many attachments. (laughs) And Master, you have authored many books, including Reading Diamond Sutra Through Seon, The Practice and Thought of Patriarchal Seon, and more. Could you give us an overview of the books you've written?
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Master: The books I've written fall into two main categories. One type consists of books that are transcriptions of my recorded Dharma talks. These are less like traditional books and more like something you can read as if you're listening to ย Dharma talks. This series is called "Dharma Talks on Seon," and includes books like Dharma Talks on Diamond Sutra, Dharma Talks on Faith in Mind , and Dharma Talks on Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra. The other category consists of translations of important sayings of Patriarchal Seon masters. Of course, many of these texts are already available in the public domain, but Iโve translated them with my own perspective. Translations can vary depending on the translatorโs insight. Iโve selected and translated the works of essential figures such as the Sixth Patriarch Huineng, Master Mazu, Master Baizhang, Master Huangbo, Master Linji, Master Yuanwu Keqin, and Master Dahui Zonggao. These are the masters whose teachings I felt were most important to share.
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Moderator: It sounds like you must be very busy. You give Dharma talks and write books.
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Master: Well, I have to do it as long as my health allows.
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Moderator: In Seon Buddhism, there's a saying not to rely on words and letters. What role do words and letters play in Seon?
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Master: When we speak of Patriarchal Seon, we often refer to five key phrases found even in high school ethics textbooks: โNo reliance on words and letters (Bulipmunja),โ โSpecial transmission outside the scriptures (Gyoebeoljeon),โ โMind-to-mind transmission (Isimjeonsim),โ โDirectly pointing to the mind (Jik-ji-in-sim),โ and โSeeing oneโs nature to become Buddha (Gyeon-seong-seong-bul).โ Among these, the first twoโโNo reliance on words and lettersโ and โSpecial transmission outside the scripturesโโrelate to language. โNo reliance on words and lettersโ means that truth cannot be fully expressed through language. โScripturesโ refer to the Buddhaโs teachings, so โSpecial transmission outside the scripturesโ means the Dharma is passed on beyond written texts or letters. In other words, our mind and this truth cannot be fully captured by words or letters.
But that doesnโt mean we shouldnโt use words or letters. Words and letters serve as a skillful meansโlike a finger pointing to the moon. This idea isnโt unique to Seon. For example, in the Lotus Sutra, itโs said that while the ultimate truth is the "Eka-yana" (one vehicle), the true single vehicle, countless skillful means can be used to express it. Likewise, in teaching, learning, and communicating, words and letters are essential. Of course, there were masters like Master Guji who simply raised a finger through his whole life, or Master Banghwal who only swung his stick as his method. Those are also skillful means. But using words and letters are often the most effective way to guide others. We use them not as the truth itself, but as a tool to point toward it.
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Moderator: So, to realize the mind, one shouldn't be bound by words and letters, but words and letters aren't unnecessary either. It's a complex interplay.
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Master: Exactly.
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Moderator: Yes. In that case, how would you introduce Patriarchal Seon to our Buddhist practitioners? You mentioned earlier that listening to Dharma talks is sufficient, but it would be great if you could summarize it again.
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Master: Patriarchal Seon (Josaseon) is, strictly speaking, a historical termโa name we use as a skillful means. Ultimately, Buddhist practice is about overcoming the unease, afflictions, delusions, discomfort, and dissatisfaction within our own minds. Some people misunderstand Buddhism as a pursuit of some lofty, separate truth. But thatโs not what Buddhism is.
Afflictions and delusions are like illnesses of the bodyโblockages in the blood vessels, for example. Similarly, our minds become blocked by distorted views, attachments, and emotional reactions like liking and disliking. These blockages make the mind uncomfortable. The purpose of Buddhist practice is to release and overcome these problems, so that our minds can be free, peaceful, and fulfilled.
The goal of the Dharma isnโt some grand truth in the heavens, but rather to gain the strength to live a satisfying, comfortable life in our daily lives, unswayed by various temptations, always remaining as we are. You donโt need special knowledge or a dramatic resolution. If your mind feels unsettled, and you find no satisfaction in material or external conditions, then I encourage you to explore mind practice.ย
Of course, there are many methods and paths for the study of the mind, but theyโre not always easy. But even Master Huineng, the founder of Josaseon, awakened upon hearing a single phrase. So if you listen deeply to the Dharma, you too can find that freedom.ย
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Moderator: Yes. I understand. We all carry afflictions and delusions, whether we realize it or not. Todayโs conversation has offered a meaningful way to begin healing those inner struggles. Thank you sincerely for your words.
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Master: Thank you.
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Moderator: Itโs said that the countless beings living in this vast universe are like grains of sand in the Ganges River. Yet, they say that the true mind residing in this small body is the universe itself. Perhaps realizing the universe residing within my own body is the true path to enlightenment. BTN Open Forum will return next time. Thank you for watching, everyone. May you all attain Buddhahood.
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