Meeting Master Kim TaeWan, Director of Musim Seon Center
Interviewed by Jeon HyunJa (Korea Correspondent for Modern Buddhism USA)
Moderator: Thank you for agreeing to do this interview. I extend greetings on behalf of the readers of Modern Buddhism USA.
Master: Yes, it's a pleasure to meet you.
Moderator: I came here knowing that you guide people through Dharma talks based on the teachings of the Buddha.
Master: Yes. I give Dharma talks.
Moderator: Would it be fair to say that giving Dharma talks means you’ve fully understood and realized the Buddha’s teachings?
Master: Rather than understanding, I simply share my experience.
Moderator: When you share your experience, are the listeners fully satisfied?
Master: Isn't the reason for studying Buddhism to find peace of mind? The people who come here are primarily those who have been searching for that. I've published a few books, and Musim Seon Center also has a website and many of my Dharma talks are uploaded on YouTube. People come after seeing those, but anyway, I speak under the name of Seon (Zen).
Moderator: Seon, as in "Chamseon" (Zen meditation), I presume?
Master: Yes, Chamseon.
Moderator: Do you personally practice and teach Seon?
Master: Practice?
Moderator: Yes, have you practiced?
Master: I’ve experienced it. I speak based on my own experience. I originally worked at a university. I majored in philosophy as an undergraduate, and then studied Buddhism in graduate school. I focused on Buddhist studies for my master’s degree and specialized in Seon for my doctoral studies—academically. But as I studied, I realized academic study alone wouldn’t resolve everything, so I sought a teacher. I met a teacher and studied under him, which simply meant listening to his Dharma talks.
Moderator: Ah, I see.
Master: Yes. I kept listening to Dharma talks for several years. And then I had an experience. Perhaps a liberation experience? Anyway, it was very much... an experience typically spoken of in Seon.
Moderator: What kind of experience is spoken of in Seon?
Master: In Buddhism, one might call it enlightenment, or liberation. One might also call it nirvana.
Moderator: So you are giving Dharma talks based on your experience of achieving enlightenment and liberation.
Master: That's right.
Moderator: Could you summarize it for us?
Master: This experience, in fact, cannot be explained with words. But if I were to force it, I could say this: It's like breaking free from your past self and becoming a new person. And it's like, if in the past you lived tightly bound by life, now you're released from it. And if in the past you were trapped within your mind, unable to cross the barrier of mind, always feeling suffocated by being confined, now you're freed from that.
Moderator: To what extent of release do you refer to as liberation, from your perspective?
Master: If you try to find what is called "mind," you could say it doesn't exist.
Moderator: So you've realized that the mind doesn't exist?
Master: Yes, that's right. If I had to put it into words, I'd say that.
Moderator: Then what is speaking now?
Master: What is speaking, you ask? My mouth is speaking.
Moderator: Is it just your mouth speaking?
Master: Yes, that's right. What speaks? Does the nose speak, or the eyes?
Moderator: When you say "mouth," do you mean not just the physical mouth but also the tongue, throat, and the act of expressing language??
Master: Yes, we understand it that way through thought. But that’s just thought. It can’t be perfectly explained in words. When I say there is no mind, people naturally ask, “Then what is it that sees, hears, speaks, and feels now?” They think that is the mind.
Moderator: But you are speaking now, correct?
Master: Yes. I see, hear, and speak - but there is no mind.
Moderator: Ah, you have no mind? That's very interesting. Then, are your students also experiencing what you teach, perhaps not to your extent, but to some degree?
Master: Yes, that's right. Many people have experiences.
Moderator: Then, who was your teacher?
Master: Ah, my teacher has passed away now. He was a lay Buddhist, not famous, but deeply studied Seon for a long time.
Moderator: Did he also give Dharma talks?
Master: Yes, he did.
Moderator: Was there a particular talk where you experienced liberation?
Master: It wasn't about understanding specific contents. So, I can't remember what was said at that time. What I do remember is that it was summer. It was mid-summer, the doors were wide open, and the Dharma talk was happening, with a fan running. I remember the situation at the time. Cicadas were chirping loudly. In that situation, I was sitting and listening to the Dharma talk, and at some point... Dharma talks always cover similar things, so I didn't really listen intently, but just comfortably. While listening comfortably, at a certain moment, my teacher tapped the floor a few times, saying, "This is Seon." At that moment, it was as if a missile struck my ear, or something forcefully entered my ear. As it entered, something blocked seemed to slide down, or something similar. At that time, I didn't know what it was. But after the Dharma gathering, on my way home, I felt strangely good. My mind felt light, and I felt somehow different from before. That was the beginning of transformation.
Moderator: You didn't feel you needed to listen particularly intently, but what was the core of that Dharma talk? Do you recall?
Master: In Seon, Dharma talks... when we usually talk about Seon, we refer to it as "Direct pointing to the human mind, seeing one's nature and becoming Buddha" (直指人心 見性成佛). All Seon Dharma talks ultimately directly point to the mind, just as that expression suggests. However, because the mind cannot be expressed in words, it's not about explaining it. Essentially...
Moderator: Did your teacher also always point like this (raising a finger) when expressing enlightenment?
Master: Occasionally, yes.
Moderator: You mentioned your mind felt lighter and changes began. If you could share the details of those gradual changes as you remember them, it would be very helpful.
Master: I don't recall the exact details, but roughly speaking, a few days later, I looked at the sayings of ancient Seon masters. Before, I had no idea what those words meant, but now I felt like I understood. It wasn't a precise understanding, but I felt like I knew what they were talking about. Gradually, things became receptive in that way. And then, the most vivid feeling I remember from that time was, first of all, like someone who was suffocating and dying could finally breathe deeply and come back to life.
Before that, I think I had listened to Dharma talks for about three years. Initially, I found the Dharma gathering difficult to sit through, even though someone introduced me to it. This was because the atmosphere of the gathering was so different from the university environment I was used to. Everyone just sat and listened to Dharma talks for one or two hours, and I couldn't understand anything that was being said. Since I had an academic background, I had read most books, so I knew what was being talked about. But when the teacher kept saying, "This is it," (tapping the Dharma table), I had no actual experience, so I truly didn't know what it was. It didn't resonate with me at all.
As for the stories about ancient Seon masters, their anecdotes, and stories from Buddhist scriptures, these were all things I already knew. I had read many such books before, so they weren't very interesting to me. So I didn't really listen to those stories. They weren't interesting, and since I had no enlightenment myself, it wasn't something I could understand on my own. I needed an actual experience, but it wasn't coming, and I was constantly stuck there.
So, for the first six months, it was genuinely boring. I was fed up. But after about six months, strangely, sitting there listening to Dharma talks became comfortable. At that time, I was working as a lecturer at the university. Going to the Dharma gathering from school felt peaceful, and returning to school felt complicated. That's how I started to enjoy it and kept attending and listening to the Dharma. But I still didn't get it. No matter how much I listened, nothing resonated. It felt like I wasn't making any progress. That's how I spent my time.
I don't know how many years passed, but one day, after finishing class at the university, I was waiting for the bus at the bus stop, and suddenly this thought struck me: 'This study of the mind, I can't do it. This is impossible for me. It's impossible.' That thought completely overwhelmed me. So, the situation became even more desperate. I majored in Seon and had to write my doctoral dissertation, but I had no experience of Seon whatsoever. And writing a dissertation based only on books felt utterly unsatisfactory to me. Writing a dissertation solely based on texts of books felt like I was lying to myself because it was just repeating others' words. So, I couldn't write the dissertation. But since this Seon study wasn't working out either, I was very desperate at that time.
Still, I couldn't stop attending the Dharma talks, but it was like... I felt like I was just going back and forth to a meaningless place, unable to make any effort, like a soul-less person habitually coming and going for no reason.
Then, suddenly, that experience came, and I felt like a dead person coming back to life, and like someone whose breath was completely blocked could finally breathe deeply again, and like being trapped in my mind, continuously circling within it, and then suddenly opening a door and stepping outside to find an endlessly vast world unfolding before me. Anyway, I felt something like that at the time.
Moderator: That was your experience. Would it be foolish to consider it merely a thought, if narrowed down?
Master: It's not a thought. Because it was an internal change that happened regardless of my thoughts.
Moderator: Does that continue to this day?
Master: No, there are continuous changes.
Moderator: What kind of changes have occurred?
Master: After that, I felt like I understood what the Seon masters were talking about. Ah, so this is why people spoke of emptiness (空). I felt like my mind had expanded into something as vast as the void, boundless. And also, my thoughts seemed to stop. Not that I wasn't thinking, but it felt like there were no thoughts.
Moderator: What is it that knows there are no thoughts?
Master: You should not think like that. If you keep analyzing and thinking like that, you'll remain trapped in thought and won't be able to escape.
Moderator: You mentioned that reading scriptures didn't really help you and there was no truth in them?
Master: Reading and understanding scriptures is all about thought. It's all understanding, thinking, done with the head. And it doesn't lead to actual changes in the mind.
Moderator: But the Buddha attained enlightenment, spoke of that enlightenment, and those words were written down to become the scriptures, correct?
Master: When I was doing my master’s in Buddhist Studies, and I personally organized Buddhist doctrines, following the fundamental Buddhism, early Buddhism, and sectarian Buddhism. After that, I briefly looked at some of the Hinayana Agamas, and also generally read important Mahayana scriptures and commentaries. There was one thing I gained from reading those scriptures and commentaries. I read Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā (Treatise on the Middle Way) several times, and the conclusion I drew from it was, 'Enlightenment exists beyond our thoughts. That's the teaching.' I made that conclusion from the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā. After that, I stopped studying doctrine and transitioned to Seon. That's what I gained from the scriptures and commentaries at that time.
Moderator: After the Buddha attained enlightenment, he gave Dharma talks to the monastics, and by listening to those talks, they attained the stage of Stream-Enterer and then even Arhatship. From that perspective, I believe enlightenment can also be attained through Dharma talks. On the other hand, there are many cases where enlightenment was achieved after diligent practice.
Master: Insight or intuition can come in many ways.
Moderator: The Buddha's first act of bringing someone to Stream-Entry was after he taught the Dharma to the five monastics, so it's an example of people reaching the path of great sages by hearing the Dharma. Since you also teach through Dharma talks, I’m asking these questions to let readers know about your inner experiences and how they are being applied now. When I asked how you know that it’s the state of liberation, your answer felt a bit ambiguous. So I’d like to ask again.
Master: It's inherently ambiguous. Because, in the scriptures, liberation is clearly stated to be the "Inconceivable Liberation Dharma Gate" (不可思議解脫法門).
Moderator: Which scripture is that from?
Master: It's in the Vimalakirti Nirdeśa Sutra.
Moderator: But Vimalakirti is not the Buddha!
Master: It's not Vimalakirti who said it. It was the Buddha's words. The Buddha appears in the Vimalakirti Sutra. Although Vimalakirti is there, the Buddha also appears and gives Dharma talks. And if liberation isn’t inconceivable and we can discern it, can we really call that liberation? That’s just something discerned using thoughts.
Moderator: I wasn't talking about discriminatory knowledge.
Master: Exactly.
Moderator: If it's a firmly experienced state...
Master: Then it’s not something discerned by the head, but something done by the mind. The mind is rested, obstacles in the mind disappear, and the mind isn’t bound by any state, concept, or view. If I had to put it into words, it’s gaining that kind of freedom—not something understood by the head.
Moderator: I wasn't asking if it was understood by the head.
Master: What is it that knows? If you analyze it that way, it becomes understanding. Because understanding is fundamentally based on the six interrogatives: who, when, where, what, how, and why. But enlightenment is not like that.
Moderator: You said that enlightenment is known by the mind, so what is that mind then?
Master: What is the mind, you ask?
Moderator: Yes.
Master: You can't say "what." Because that's already thought. If that happens, it's understanding, not mind.
Moderator: Since you guide us to the path of enlightenment through Dharma talks...
Master: I give Dharma talks.
Moderator: Yes. If you give Dharma talks, shouldn't you be able to provide some kind of answer when asked what the word "mind" means? For example...
Master: When asked about the word "mind," I can answer like this: Thump! (He taps the table).
Moderator: Is that how you and the people who study here communicate?
Master: Do you understand? (He raises a finger) What this is?
Moderator: Me?
Master: Do you say that knowing it?
Moderator: Do I seem to know, or not know?
Master: So, what you just said...
Moderator: Do I seem to know, or not know?
Master: You seem to not know at all.
Moderator: In the Charye-gyeong (Analects of the Buddha), it states that the Buddha taught the Dharma to Mahakasyapa, and Mahakasyapa achieved enlightenment after 15 days of diligent practice.
Master: I don't know about that.
Moderator: You don't know? Even if you don't know the Nikayas or the Charye-gyeong, the Buddha gave Dharma talks on enlightenment, and then Mahakasyapa practiced for 15 days. He then achieved complete enlightenment. In this way, the Buddha taught practice, Mahakasyapa practiced, and then declared complete enlightenment. The core of that sutra is that practice was done. What are your thoughts on this?
Master: Well, I don't have particular thoughts on that. What I teach here is nothing other than what Seon has always been: "No reliance on words and letters" (不立文字), "A special transmission outside the scriptures" (教外別傳), "Direct pointing to the human mind" (直指人心), and "Seeing one's nature and becoming Buddha" (見性成佛). This is called "Transmission from mind to mind" (以心傳心). Among the eighty-four thousand Dharma gates, I've looked at a few Hinayana sutras, but mainly Mahayana sutras. Now, when I read Mahayana sutras, they all make sense to me. I understand why they say what they say. In Mahayana sutras, there aren't many instructions on how to practice. They mainly talk about the wisdom of enlightenment. In other words, they talk about the Dharma of Non-Duality (不二法門).
What I experienced was not through any particular method of practice. I can only speak of what I experienced. I can't speak of things I heard from others or read in books. What I experienced was not through performing any practice, but by having that experience while listening to Dharma talks. And then, I gained conviction in what is called the Dharma of Non-Duality.
Moderator: What is duality, and what is non-duality?
Master: All this analyzing and deliberating is duality. If you go beyond this, you can experience what non-duality is.
Moderator: You and I are not dual?
Master: If you analyze it, of course, we are dual.
Moderator: Then, since you say you've realized it in a state beyond analysis, are we not dual, but one?
Master: Non-duality can only be spoken of in relation to duality; what is non-dual cannot be discriminated from the outset, so it cannot be spoken of. It can only be said that it's non-dual in relation to the discrimination of duality.
Moderator: I wasn't asking if it was understood conceptually.
Master: So it is.
Moderator: If that state has been firmly experienced...
Master: So, that's not something discriminated by the head; it's what the mind does. The mind is freed, obstacles disappear from the mind, and the mind is not bound by any realms, concepts, or views. If I had to put it into words, it's about gaining such freedom, not understanding it with the head.
Moderator: My question wasn't about intellectual understanding.
Master: What is it that knows? If you analyze it that way, it's understanding. Because understanding is fundamentally based on the six W's: who, when, where, what, how, and why? But enlightenment is not like that.
Moderator: You said that enlightenment is known by the mind, so what is that mind then?
Master: What is the mind, you ask?
Moderator: Yes.
Master: You can't say "what." Because that's already thought. If that happens, it's understanding, not mind.
Moderator: Since you guide people to the path of enlightenment through Dharma talks...
Master: I give Dharma talks.
Moderator: Yes. If you give Dharma talks, shouldn't you be able to provide some kind of answer when asked what the word "mind" means? For example...
Master: When asked about the word "mind," I can answer like this: Thump! (He taps the table).
Moderator: Is that how you and the people who study here communicate?
Master: Do you understand? (He raises a finger) What this is?
Moderator: Me?
Master: Do you say that knowing it?
Moderator: Do I seem to know, or not know?
Master: So, what you just said...
Moderator: Do I seem to know, or not know?
Master: You seem to not know at all.
Moderator: In the Charye-gyeong (Analects of the Buddha), it states that the Buddha taught the Dharma to Mahakasyapa, and Mahakasyapa achieved enlightenment after 15 days of diligent practice.
Master: I don't know about that.
Moderator: You don't know? Even if you don't know the Nikayas or the Charye-gyeong, the Buddha gave Dharma talks on enlightenment, and then Mahakasyapa practiced for 15 days. He then achieved complete enlightenment. In this way, the Buddha taught practice, Mahakasyapa practiced, and then declared complete enlightenment. The core of that sutra is that practice was done. What are your thoughts on this?
Master: Well, I don't have particular thoughts on that. What I teach here is nothing other than what Seon has always been: "No reliance on words and letters" (不立文字), "A special transmission outside the scriptures" (教外別傳), "Direct pointing to the human mind" (直指人心), and "Seeing one's nature and becoming Buddha" (見性成佛). This is called "Transmission from mind to mind" (以心傳心). I've looked at a few Hinayana sutras among the eighty-four thousand Dharma gates, but mainly Mahayana sutras. Now, when I read Mahayana sutras, they all make sense to me. I understand why they say what they say. In Mahayana sutras, there aren't many instructions on how to practice. They mainly talk about the wisdom of enlightenment. In other words, they talk about the Dharma of Non-Duality (不二法門).
What I experienced was not through any particular method of practice. I can only speak of what I experienced. I can't speak of things I heard from others or read in books. What I experienced was not through performing any practice, but by having that experience while listening to Dharma talks. And then, I gained conviction in what is called the Dharma of Non-Duality.
Moderator: What is being two, and what is being not two?
Master: All this analyzing and calculating is duality. If you go beyond this, you can experience what non-duality is.
Moderator: You and I are not dual?
Master: If you analyze it, of course, we are dual.
Moderator: Then, since you say you've realized it in a state beyond analysis, are we not dual, but one?
Master: Saying "not dual" can only be said relative to duality. What is non-dual is not something that can be discriminated in the first place, so it cannot be spoken of. It can only be said to be non-dual relative to the discrimination of duality.
Moderator: It would be difficult for people who are not in a situation where they experience realization while listening to your special Dharma talks. Of course, I’ve heard that for some people, even the phrase “it cannot be spoken” can trigger enlightenment. But please don’t assume that my questions are merely linguistic, dualistic, or rational. You’ve said you’ve experienced realization and that “the world of enlightenment is inconceivable.” But isn’t that also expressed in language?
Master: Because it cannot be spoken, I can say that it cannot be spoken.
Moderator: Still, if you speak, wouldn’t it help learners get closer to understanding? Out of compassion, couldn’t you speak with wise words?
Master: That’s exactly what I do during Dharma talks. When I teach, I speak of what cannot be spoken. If it could be spoken, there wouldn’t be a need for many words. Just one precise statement would suffice. But because it cannot be spoken, I speak for an hour, two hours, even a hundred hours—like the eighty-four thousand Dharma teachings. Why? Because the Dharma cannot be spoken, all words about it are not truth but expedient means. You know the term “expedient means,” right? All of the Buddha’s teachings are expedient. That means they are not the ultimate truth. The term “expedient” stands in contrast to truth. You don’t mistake the finger pointing at the moon for the moon itself.
Moderator: For someone who doesn't know the moon, they need someone to point their finger to where the moon is in the sky to see it, right?
Master: That's why I give Dharma talks.
Moderator: I know that the finger pointing at the moon is not the moon. I asked because you have attained realization and give Dharma talks to lead people to enlightenment.
Master: You're curious about how I lead people, right?
Moderator: Yes. But if your conclusion is "it cannot be expressed in words," then there's nothing more to ask in words, is there?
Master: But that's not the conclusion. That's also a form of expedient means.
Moderator: It's the conclusion in your method of teaching.
Master: No, it's not a method.
Moderator: Then what is the method?
Master: The Dharma talk itself.
Moderator: So your method of guiding people to the path of truth is speaking about the unspeakable through Dharma talks?
Master: I speak of what cannot be spoken, but the listener cannot understand. Because it cannot be spoken, it cannot be understood. Yet I speak. When I keep speaking of what cannot be spoken and understood, people initially think they can understand. But as they listen, they realize they don’t understand. Then they become more curious—what am I pointing to? The more they listen, the more curious and thirsty they become. Clearly, I’m saying something, but they can’t grasp what it is. That thirst, that curiosity, that obstruction—that is the expedient method in Seon. I don’t know much about the Hinayana side.
Moderator: You say Hinayana, but wouldn't it be better to say early Buddhism or Theravada Buddhism?
Master: Anyway, yes, I haven't experienced that side, the one that involves progressing step by step through such practices, so I don't know much about it and won't comment on it. In our Seon, how do we do it? It's not just me; ancient Seon masters all did it this way. In Seon, we show the Dharma to the student. But we absolutely do not allow them to understand it. Not only do we prevent understanding, but since it's not a feeling either, we don't allow them to know it in any way. We make it impossible for them to do anything with it.
From the perspective of the student, they are studying because they want to know what enlightenment is. When a wise teacher points it out through Dharma talk, there's a belief that there must be something there, but they can't do anything with it. They can't understand it, can't act on it, and aren't given any particular practice method. Then, they truly hit a wall. Their path is completely blocked. We express this as if a silver mountain and iron wall (銀山鐵壁) block the way. In other words, it's called an "unresolved doubt" (疑團), meaning a mass of doubt. Since nothing can be known, all that remains is doubt.
We also use the expressions “diamond cage” (金剛圈) and “chestnut burr” (栗棘蓬). The diamond cage refers to being trapped in a prison made of diamond—completely inescapable. The chestnut burr refers to a spiky chestnut stuck in your throat—too painful to swallow or spit out.
Seon deliberately places people in this kind of mental deadlock. That’s the basic method of guidance in Seon. That's what I'm doing to people. That's how I studied too, if I had to explain it. When you're completely blocked like that, at a certain moment, a sudden transformation occurs. It’s mysterious.
Moderator: Thank you very much. And thank you for calmly explaining despite the repetitive and similar questions. For Ganhwaseon practitioners, could you briefly summarize could you summarize a message that might help them generate more doubt and inquiry, leading to liberation?
Master: What I am doing is not Ganhwaseon.
Moderator: Then what is it?
Master: It's not Ganhwaseon. If I had to give it a name, it's called Patriarchal Seon- Josaseon (祖師禪).
Moderator: Patriarchal Seon?
Master: Historically, Ganhwaseon branched out from Patriarchal Seon. The person who created Ganhwaseon was originally someone who studied Patriarchal Seon. Although what they devised is called Ganhwaseon, even in Ganhwaseon, one eventually needs to have an experience that transcends their own limits, so they speak of "unresolved doubt" (疑團). In Ganhwaseon, they also speak of the diamond cage and chestnut burr, and that one must be like a mouse caught in a mousetrap. When a mouse first enters a mousetrap, it goes in thinking there's something to eat, but once inside, it finds itself trapped, unable to escape, and a place to die. They say that a mouse caught in a mousetrap must finally die to be reborn, and such stories are similar to our experience. Their problem is how such a situation is created with a hwadu (koan), and about that, I don't really know. Because I've never practiced Ganhwaseon.
Moderator: Since you say it's not Ganhwaseon, what's important is that enlightenment can also be attained through your teachings.
Master: Originally, the Seon that emerged in China was Patriarchal Seon.
Moderator: Since Patriarchal Seon originated in China and then developed into Ganhwaseon, could you give some teaching through your methods that would allow us to approach the world of enlightenment more closely?
Master: Above all, this study requires one to initiate it with a sincere yearning (發心). First, you must have faith that the truth the Buddha realized and taught truly exists. Then, you must believe that through Seon, you can experience the same enlightenment. Without that faith, it’s impossible.
If you have that faith and want to study directly, you must seek out a spiritual teacher and listen to its guidance. These three things are fundamental. Nothing else is needed.
Moderator: So, you're saying that through Patriarchal Seon, one can achieve the complete liberation that the Buddha attained, experience the same state, and that you urge people to be confident and believe in that?
Master: If one does not believe that, then one cannot study Seon. Some people say that since Seon originated in China, it has no relation to Buddhism, and such people would not be able to study Seon.
Moderator: So, we should hold that faith and investigate the mass of doubt?
Master: No, do not investigate. If you have faith, go find a wise teacher and listen to their teachings.
Moderator: So, having faith and finding a wise teacher completes the path of Patriarchal Seon?
Master: Do not try to do something based on your own thoughts and judgment. You must find a wise teacher with correct insight and listen to their teachings. This is because a person who has not yet attained enlightenment cannot follow the right path if they rely on their own thoughts and judgment. This is because before experiencing enlightenment, one can never truly know what enlightenment is. Therefore, one must absolutely receive guidance from someone who has already walked that path.
Moderator: If that's the case, have you achieved complete enlightenment?
Master: Well, I can't say that myself. However, I am satisfied. I am.
Moderator: What kind of satisfaction?
Master: First, mentally speaking, I have very few afflictions, so to speak. When I say I teach people, in fact, I teach nothing. Not being free from afflictions is an individual's own internal problem. But since they cannot resolve it themselves, my role is probably to continuously stimulate them from the outside so that it can be resolved naturally within their own being. But ultimately, they resolve it themselves.
Moderator: Who are you, Master?
Master: Me?
Moderator: Yes.
Master: Well, I can answer that in two ways. From a worldly perspective, I am Mr. Kim TaeWan. From a perspective beyond the worldly, there is no one to call "who." But if you actually study it, you can't definitively say it's this or that. That's why the name Dharma of Non-Duality (不二法門) is given. Of course, I don't live in a state without discrimination. I do discriminate, but I can say there is no discrimination. I do everything that ordinary people do in the world. I do everything, but there is always nothing. In other words, you could say I always live that way. It happens naturally. I can't put it any other way. Is emptiness (空) the conclusion simply because it's called emptiness? It's not like that. It's said to be empty and nonexistent, but it's not just nothing; everything is also there. Everything is there, and yet there is also nothing. That's why they said it's non-dual. It's a world where existence and non-existence are not two. From my perspective, that's how those words appear. That's it, simply. So, there's no fixed idea of 'This is enlightenment' or 'This is liberation.'
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Date: October 1, 2018, 2 PM
Location: Musim Seon Center, Seoul
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Meeting Master Kim TaeWan, Director of Musim Seon Center
Interviewed by Jeon HyunJa (Korea Correspondent for Modern Buddhism USA)
Moderator: Thank you for agreeing to do this interview. I extend greetings on behalf of the readers of Modern Buddhism USA.
Master: Yes, it's a pleasure to meet you.
Moderator: I came here knowing that you guide people through Dharma talks based on the teachings of the Buddha.
Master: Yes. I give Dharma talks.
Moderator: Would it be fair to say that giving Dharma talks means you’ve fully understood and realized the Buddha’s teachings?
Master: Rather than understanding, I simply share my experience.
Moderator: When you share your experience, are the listeners fully satisfied?
Master: Isn't the reason for studying Buddhism to find peace of mind? The people who come here are primarily those who have been searching for that. I've published a few books, and Musim Seon Center also has a website and many of my Dharma talks are uploaded on YouTube. People come after seeing those, but anyway, I speak under the name of Seon (Zen).
Moderator: Seon, as in "Chamseon" (Zen meditation), I presume?
Master: Yes, Chamseon.
Moderator: Do you personally practice and teach Seon?
Master: Practice?
Moderator: Yes, have you practiced?
Master: I’ve experienced it. I speak based on my own experience. I originally worked at a university. I majored in philosophy as an undergraduate, and then studied Buddhism in graduate school. I focused on Buddhist studies for my master’s degree and specialized in Seon for my doctoral studies—academically. But as I studied, I realized academic study alone wouldn’t resolve everything, so I sought a teacher. I met a teacher and studied under him, which simply meant listening to his Dharma talks.
Moderator: Ah, I see.
Master: Yes. I kept listening to Dharma talks for several years. And then I had an experience. Perhaps a liberation experience? Anyway, it was very much... an experience typically spoken of in Seon.
Moderator: What kind of experience is spoken of in Seon?
Master: In Buddhism, one might call it enlightenment, or liberation. One might also call it nirvana.
Moderator: So you are giving Dharma talks based on your experience of achieving enlightenment and liberation.
Master: That's right.
Moderator: Could you summarize it for us?
Master: This experience, in fact, cannot be explained with words. But if I were to force it, I could say this: It's like breaking free from your past self and becoming a new person. And it's like, if in the past you lived tightly bound by life, now you're released from it. And if in the past you were trapped within your mind, unable to cross the barrier of mind, always feeling suffocated by being confined, now you're freed from that.
Moderator: To what extent of release do you refer to as liberation, from your perspective?
Master: If you try to find what is called "mind," you could say it doesn't exist.
Moderator: So you've realized that the mind doesn't exist?
Master: Yes, that's right. If I had to put it into words, I'd say that.
Moderator: Then what is speaking now?
Master: What is speaking, you ask? My mouth is speaking.
Moderator: Is it just your mouth speaking?
Master: Yes, that's right. What speaks? Does the nose speak, or the eyes?
Moderator: When you say "mouth," do you mean not just the physical mouth but also the tongue, throat, and the act of expressing language??
Master: Yes, we understand it that way through thought. But that’s just thought. It can’t be perfectly explained in words. When I say there is no mind, people naturally ask, “Then what is it that sees, hears, speaks, and feels now?” They think that is the mind.
Moderator: But you are speaking now, correct?
Master: Yes. I see, hear, and speak - but there is no mind.
Moderator: Ah, you have no mind? That's very interesting. Then, are your students also experiencing what you teach, perhaps not to your extent, but to some degree?
Master: Yes, that's right. Many people have experiences.
Moderator: Then, who was your teacher?
Master: Ah, my teacher has passed away now. He was a lay Buddhist, not famous, but deeply studied Seon for a long time.
Moderator: Did he also give Dharma talks?
Master: Yes, he did.
Moderator: Was there a particular talk where you experienced liberation?
Master: It wasn't about understanding specific contents. So, I can't remember what was said at that time. What I do remember is that it was summer. It was mid-summer, the doors were wide open, and the Dharma talk was happening, with a fan running. I remember the situation at the time. Cicadas were chirping loudly. In that situation, I was sitting and listening to the Dharma talk, and at some point... Dharma talks always cover similar things, so I didn't really listen intently, but just comfortably. While listening comfortably, at a certain moment, my teacher tapped the floor a few times, saying, "This is Seon." At that moment, it was as if a missile struck my ear, or something forcefully entered my ear. As it entered, something blocked seemed to slide down, or something similar. At that time, I didn't know what it was. But after the Dharma gathering, on my way home, I felt strangely good. My mind felt light, and I felt somehow different from before. That was the beginning of transformation.
Moderator: You didn't feel you needed to listen particularly intently, but what was the core of that Dharma talk? Do you recall?
Master: In Seon, Dharma talks... when we usually talk about Seon, we refer to it as "Direct pointing to the human mind, seeing one's nature and becoming Buddha" (直指人心 見性成佛). All Seon Dharma talks ultimately directly point to the mind, just as that expression suggests. However, because the mind cannot be expressed in words, it's not about explaining it. Essentially...
Moderator: Did your teacher also always point like this (raising a finger) when expressing enlightenment?
Master: Occasionally, yes.
Moderator: You mentioned your mind felt lighter and changes began. If you could share the details of those gradual changes as you remember them, it would be very helpful.
Master: I don't recall the exact details, but roughly speaking, a few days later, I looked at the sayings of ancient Seon masters. Before, I had no idea what those words meant, but now I felt like I understood. It wasn't a precise understanding, but I felt like I knew what they were talking about. Gradually, things became receptive in that way. And then, the most vivid feeling I remember from that time was, first of all, like someone who was suffocating and dying could finally breathe deeply and come back to life.
Before that, I think I had listened to Dharma talks for about three years. Initially, I found the Dharma gathering difficult to sit through, even though someone introduced me to it. This was because the atmosphere of the gathering was so different from the university environment I was used to. Everyone just sat and listened to Dharma talks for one or two hours, and I couldn't understand anything that was being said. Since I had an academic background, I had read most books, so I knew what was being talked about. But when the teacher kept saying, "This is it," (tapping the Dharma table), I had no actual experience, so I truly didn't know what it was. It didn't resonate with me at all.
As for the stories about ancient Seon masters, their anecdotes, and stories from Buddhist scriptures, these were all things I already knew. I had read many such books before, so they weren't very interesting to me. So I didn't really listen to those stories. They weren't interesting, and since I had no enlightenment myself, it wasn't something I could understand on my own. I needed an actual experience, but it wasn't coming, and I was constantly stuck there.
So, for the first six months, it was genuinely boring. I was fed up. But after about six months, strangely, sitting there listening to Dharma talks became comfortable. At that time, I was working as a lecturer at the university. Going to the Dharma gathering from school felt peaceful, and returning to school felt complicated. That's how I started to enjoy it and kept attending and listening to the Dharma. But I still didn't get it. No matter how much I listened, nothing resonated. It felt like I wasn't making any progress. That's how I spent my time.
I don't know how many years passed, but one day, after finishing class at the university, I was waiting for the bus at the bus stop, and suddenly this thought struck me: 'This study of the mind, I can't do it. This is impossible for me. It's impossible.' That thought completely overwhelmed me. So, the situation became even more desperate. I majored in Seon and had to write my doctoral dissertation, but I had no experience of Seon whatsoever. And writing a dissertation based only on books felt utterly unsatisfactory to me. Writing a dissertation solely based on texts of books felt like I was lying to myself because it was just repeating others' words. So, I couldn't write the dissertation. But since this Seon study wasn't working out either, I was very desperate at that time.
Still, I couldn't stop attending the Dharma talks, but it was like... I felt like I was just going back and forth to a meaningless place, unable to make any effort, like a soul-less person habitually coming and going for no reason.
Then, suddenly, that experience came, and I felt like a dead person coming back to life, and like someone whose breath was completely blocked could finally breathe deeply again, and like being trapped in my mind, continuously circling within it, and then suddenly opening a door and stepping outside to find an endlessly vast world unfolding before me. Anyway, I felt something like that at the time.
Moderator: That was your experience. Would it be foolish to consider it merely a thought, if narrowed down?
Master: It's not a thought. Because it was an internal change that happened regardless of my thoughts.
Moderator: Does that continue to this day?
Master: No, there are continuous changes.
Moderator: What kind of changes have occurred?
Master: After that, I felt like I understood what the Seon masters were talking about. Ah, so this is why people spoke of emptiness (空). I felt like my mind had expanded into something as vast as the void, boundless. And also, my thoughts seemed to stop. Not that I wasn't thinking, but it felt like there were no thoughts.
Moderator: What is it that knows there are no thoughts?
Master: You should not think like that. If you keep analyzing and thinking like that, you'll remain trapped in thought and won't be able to escape.
Moderator: You mentioned that reading scriptures didn't really help you and there was no truth in them?
Master: Reading and understanding scriptures is all about thought. It's all understanding, thinking, done with the head. And it doesn't lead to actual changes in the mind.
Moderator: But the Buddha attained enlightenment, spoke of that enlightenment, and those words were written down to become the scriptures, correct?
Master: When I was doing my master’s in Buddhist Studies, and I personally organized Buddhist doctrines, following the fundamental Buddhism, early Buddhism, and sectarian Buddhism. After that, I briefly looked at some of the Hinayana Agamas, and also generally read important Mahayana scriptures and commentaries. There was one thing I gained from reading those scriptures and commentaries. I read Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā (Treatise on the Middle Way) several times, and the conclusion I drew from it was, 'Enlightenment exists beyond our thoughts. That's the teaching.' I made that conclusion from the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā. After that, I stopped studying doctrine and transitioned to Seon. That's what I gained from the scriptures and commentaries at that time.
Moderator: After the Buddha attained enlightenment, he gave Dharma talks to the monastics, and by listening to those talks, they attained the stage of Stream-Enterer and then even Arhatship. From that perspective, I believe enlightenment can also be attained through Dharma talks. On the other hand, there are many cases where enlightenment was achieved after diligent practice.
Master: Insight or intuition can come in many ways.
Moderator: The Buddha's first act of bringing someone to Stream-Entry was after he taught the Dharma to the five monastics, so it's an example of people reaching the path of great sages by hearing the Dharma. Since you also teach through Dharma talks, I’m asking these questions to let readers know about your inner experiences and how they are being applied now. When I asked how you know that it’s the state of liberation, your answer felt a bit ambiguous. So I’d like to ask again.
Master: It's inherently ambiguous. Because, in the scriptures, liberation is clearly stated to be the "Inconceivable Liberation Dharma Gate" (不可思議解脫法門).
Moderator: Which scripture is that from?
Master: It's in the Vimalakirti Nirdeśa Sutra.
Moderator: But Vimalakirti is not the Buddha!
Master: It's not Vimalakirti who said it. It was the Buddha's words. The Buddha appears in the Vimalakirti Sutra. Although Vimalakirti is there, the Buddha also appears and gives Dharma talks. And if liberation isn’t inconceivable and we can discern it, can we really call that liberation? That’s just something discerned using thoughts.
Moderator: I wasn't talking about discriminatory knowledge.
Master: Exactly.
Moderator: If it's a firmly experienced state...
Master: Then it’s not something discerned by the head, but something done by the mind. The mind is rested, obstacles in the mind disappear, and the mind isn’t bound by any state, concept, or view. If I had to put it into words, it’s gaining that kind of freedom—not something understood by the head.
Moderator: I wasn't asking if it was understood by the head.
Master: What is it that knows? If you analyze it that way, it becomes understanding. Because understanding is fundamentally based on the six interrogatives: who, when, where, what, how, and why. But enlightenment is not like that.
Moderator: You said that enlightenment is known by the mind, so what is that mind then?
Master: What is the mind, you ask?
Moderator: Yes.
Master: You can't say "what." Because that's already thought. If that happens, it's understanding, not mind.
Moderator: Since you guide us to the path of enlightenment through Dharma talks...
Master: I give Dharma talks.
Moderator: Yes. If you give Dharma talks, shouldn't you be able to provide some kind of answer when asked what the word "mind" means? For example...
Master: When asked about the word "mind," I can answer like this: Thump! (He taps the table).
Moderator: Is that how you and the people who study here communicate?
Master: Do you understand? (He raises a finger) What this is?
Moderator: Me?
Master: Do you say that knowing it?
Moderator: Do I seem to know, or not know?
Master: So, what you just said...
Moderator: Do I seem to know, or not know?
Master: You seem to not know at all.
Moderator: In the Charye-gyeong (Analects of the Buddha), it states that the Buddha taught the Dharma to Mahakasyapa, and Mahakasyapa achieved enlightenment after 15 days of diligent practice.
Master: I don't know about that.
Moderator: You don't know? Even if you don't know the Nikayas or the Charye-gyeong, the Buddha gave Dharma talks on enlightenment, and then Mahakasyapa practiced for 15 days. He then achieved complete enlightenment. In this way, the Buddha taught practice, Mahakasyapa practiced, and then declared complete enlightenment. The core of that sutra is that practice was done. What are your thoughts on this?
Master: Well, I don't have particular thoughts on that. What I teach here is nothing other than what Seon has always been: "No reliance on words and letters" (不立文字), "A special transmission outside the scriptures" (教外別傳), "Direct pointing to the human mind" (直指人心), and "Seeing one's nature and becoming Buddha" (見性成佛). This is called "Transmission from mind to mind" (以心傳心). Among the eighty-four thousand Dharma gates, I've looked at a few Hinayana sutras, but mainly Mahayana sutras. Now, when I read Mahayana sutras, they all make sense to me. I understand why they say what they say. In Mahayana sutras, there aren't many instructions on how to practice. They mainly talk about the wisdom of enlightenment. In other words, they talk about the Dharma of Non-Duality (不二法門).
What I experienced was not through any particular method of practice. I can only speak of what I experienced. I can't speak of things I heard from others or read in books. What I experienced was not through performing any practice, but by having that experience while listening to Dharma talks. And then, I gained conviction in what is called the Dharma of Non-Duality.
Moderator: What is duality, and what is non-duality?
Master: All this analyzing and deliberating is duality. If you go beyond this, you can experience what non-duality is.
Moderator: You and I are not dual?
Master: If you analyze it, of course, we are dual.
Moderator: Then, since you say you've realized it in a state beyond analysis, are we not dual, but one?
Master: Non-duality can only be spoken of in relation to duality; what is non-dual cannot be discriminated from the outset, so it cannot be spoken of. It can only be said that it's non-dual in relation to the discrimination of duality.
Moderator: I wasn't asking if it was understood conceptually.
Master: So it is.
Moderator: If that state has been firmly experienced...
Master: So, that's not something discriminated by the head; it's what the mind does. The mind is freed, obstacles disappear from the mind, and the mind is not bound by any realms, concepts, or views. If I had to put it into words, it's about gaining such freedom, not understanding it with the head.
Moderator: My question wasn't about intellectual understanding.
Master: What is it that knows? If you analyze it that way, it's understanding. Because understanding is fundamentally based on the six W's: who, when, where, what, how, and why? But enlightenment is not like that.
Moderator: You said that enlightenment is known by the mind, so what is that mind then?
Master: What is the mind, you ask?
Moderator: Yes.
Master: You can't say "what." Because that's already thought. If that happens, it's understanding, not mind.
Moderator: Since you guide people to the path of enlightenment through Dharma talks...
Master: I give Dharma talks.
Moderator: Yes. If you give Dharma talks, shouldn't you be able to provide some kind of answer when asked what the word "mind" means? For example...
Master: When asked about the word "mind," I can answer like this: Thump! (He taps the table).
Moderator: Is that how you and the people who study here communicate?
Master: Do you understand? (He raises a finger) What this is?
Moderator: Me?
Master: Do you say that knowing it?
Moderator: Do I seem to know, or not know?
Master: So, what you just said...
Moderator: Do I seem to know, or not know?
Master: You seem to not know at all.
Moderator: In the Charye-gyeong (Analects of the Buddha), it states that the Buddha taught the Dharma to Mahakasyapa, and Mahakasyapa achieved enlightenment after 15 days of diligent practice.
Master: I don't know about that.
Moderator: You don't know? Even if you don't know the Nikayas or the Charye-gyeong, the Buddha gave Dharma talks on enlightenment, and then Mahakasyapa practiced for 15 days. He then achieved complete enlightenment. In this way, the Buddha taught practice, Mahakasyapa practiced, and then declared complete enlightenment. The core of that sutra is that practice was done. What are your thoughts on this?
Master: Well, I don't have particular thoughts on that. What I teach here is nothing other than what Seon has always been: "No reliance on words and letters" (不立文字), "A special transmission outside the scriptures" (教外別傳), "Direct pointing to the human mind" (直指人心), and "Seeing one's nature and becoming Buddha" (見性成佛). This is called "Transmission from mind to mind" (以心傳心). I've looked at a few Hinayana sutras among the eighty-four thousand Dharma gates, but mainly Mahayana sutras. Now, when I read Mahayana sutras, they all make sense to me. I understand why they say what they say. In Mahayana sutras, there aren't many instructions on how to practice. They mainly talk about the wisdom of enlightenment. In other words, they talk about the Dharma of Non-Duality (不二法門).
What I experienced was not through any particular method of practice. I can only speak of what I experienced. I can't speak of things I heard from others or read in books. What I experienced was not through performing any practice, but by having that experience while listening to Dharma talks. And then, I gained conviction in what is called the Dharma of Non-Duality.
Moderator: What is being two, and what is being not two?
Master: All this analyzing and calculating is duality. If you go beyond this, you can experience what non-duality is.
Moderator: You and I are not dual?
Master: If you analyze it, of course, we are dual.
Moderator: Then, since you say you've realized it in a state beyond analysis, are we not dual, but one?
Master: Saying "not dual" can only be said relative to duality. What is non-dual is not something that can be discriminated in the first place, so it cannot be spoken of. It can only be said to be non-dual relative to the discrimination of duality.
Moderator: It would be difficult for people who are not in a situation where they experience realization while listening to your special Dharma talks. Of course, I’ve heard that for some people, even the phrase “it cannot be spoken” can trigger enlightenment. But please don’t assume that my questions are merely linguistic, dualistic, or rational. You’ve said you’ve experienced realization and that “the world of enlightenment is inconceivable.” But isn’t that also expressed in language?
Master: Because it cannot be spoken, I can say that it cannot be spoken.
Moderator: Still, if you speak, wouldn’t it help learners get closer to understanding? Out of compassion, couldn’t you speak with wise words?
Master: That’s exactly what I do during Dharma talks. When I teach, I speak of what cannot be spoken. If it could be spoken, there wouldn’t be a need for many words. Just one precise statement would suffice. But because it cannot be spoken, I speak for an hour, two hours, even a hundred hours—like the eighty-four thousand Dharma teachings. Why? Because the Dharma cannot be spoken, all words about it are not truth but expedient means. You know the term “expedient means,” right? All of the Buddha’s teachings are expedient. That means they are not the ultimate truth. The term “expedient” stands in contrast to truth. You don’t mistake the finger pointing at the moon for the moon itself.
Moderator: For someone who doesn't know the moon, they need someone to point their finger to where the moon is in the sky to see it, right?
Master: That's why I give Dharma talks.
Moderator: I know that the finger pointing at the moon is not the moon. I asked because you have attained realization and give Dharma talks to lead people to enlightenment.
Master: You're curious about how I lead people, right?
Moderator: Yes. But if your conclusion is "it cannot be expressed in words," then there's nothing more to ask in words, is there?
Master: But that's not the conclusion. That's also a form of expedient means.
Moderator: It's the conclusion in your method of teaching.
Master: No, it's not a method.
Moderator: Then what is the method?
Master: The Dharma talk itself.
Moderator: So your method of guiding people to the path of truth is speaking about the unspeakable through Dharma talks?
Master: I speak of what cannot be spoken, but the listener cannot understand. Because it cannot be spoken, it cannot be understood. Yet I speak. When I keep speaking of what cannot be spoken and understood, people initially think they can understand. But as they listen, they realize they don’t understand. Then they become more curious—what am I pointing to? The more they listen, the more curious and thirsty they become. Clearly, I’m saying something, but they can’t grasp what it is. That thirst, that curiosity, that obstruction—that is the expedient method in Seon. I don’t know much about the Hinayana side.
Moderator: You say Hinayana, but wouldn't it be better to say early Buddhism or Theravada Buddhism?
Master: Anyway, yes, I haven't experienced that side, the one that involves progressing step by step through such practices, so I don't know much about it and won't comment on it. In our Seon, how do we do it? It's not just me; ancient Seon masters all did it this way. In Seon, we show the Dharma to the student. But we absolutely do not allow them to understand it. Not only do we prevent understanding, but since it's not a feeling either, we don't allow them to know it in any way. We make it impossible for them to do anything with it.
From the perspective of the student, they are studying because they want to know what enlightenment is. When a wise teacher points it out through Dharma talk, there's a belief that there must be something there, but they can't do anything with it. They can't understand it, can't act on it, and aren't given any particular practice method. Then, they truly hit a wall. Their path is completely blocked. We express this as if a silver mountain and iron wall (銀山鐵壁) block the way. In other words, it's called an "unresolved doubt" (疑團), meaning a mass of doubt. Since nothing can be known, all that remains is doubt.
We also use the expressions “diamond cage” (金剛圈) and “chestnut burr” (栗棘蓬). The diamond cage refers to being trapped in a prison made of diamond—completely inescapable. The chestnut burr refers to a spiky chestnut stuck in your throat—too painful to swallow or spit out.
Seon deliberately places people in this kind of mental deadlock. That’s the basic method of guidance in Seon. That's what I'm doing to people. That's how I studied too, if I had to explain it. When you're completely blocked like that, at a certain moment, a sudden transformation occurs. It’s mysterious.
Moderator: Thank you very much. And thank you for calmly explaining despite the repetitive and similar questions. For Ganhwaseon practitioners, could you briefly summarize could you summarize a message that might help them generate more doubt and inquiry, leading to liberation?
Master: What I am doing is not Ganhwaseon.
Moderator: Then what is it?
Master: It's not Ganhwaseon. If I had to give it a name, it's called Patriarchal Seon- Josaseon (祖師禪).
Moderator: Patriarchal Seon?
Master: Historically, Ganhwaseon branched out from Patriarchal Seon. The person who created Ganhwaseon was originally someone who studied Patriarchal Seon. Although what they devised is called Ganhwaseon, even in Ganhwaseon, one eventually needs to have an experience that transcends their own limits, so they speak of "unresolved doubt" (疑團). In Ganhwaseon, they also speak of the diamond cage and chestnut burr, and that one must be like a mouse caught in a mousetrap. When a mouse first enters a mousetrap, it goes in thinking there's something to eat, but once inside, it finds itself trapped, unable to escape, and a place to die. They say that a mouse caught in a mousetrap must finally die to be reborn, and such stories are similar to our experience. Their problem is how such a situation is created with a hwadu (koan), and about that, I don't really know. Because I've never practiced Ganhwaseon.
Moderator: Since you say it's not Ganhwaseon, what's important is that enlightenment can also be attained through your teachings.
Master: Originally, the Seon that emerged in China was Patriarchal Seon.
Moderator: Since Patriarchal Seon originated in China and then developed into Ganhwaseon, could you give some teaching through your methods that would allow us to approach the world of enlightenment more closely?
Master: Above all, this study requires one to initiate it with a sincere yearning (發心). First, you must have faith that the truth the Buddha realized and taught truly exists. Then, you must believe that through Seon, you can experience the same enlightenment. Without that faith, it’s impossible.
If you have that faith and want to study directly, you must seek out a spiritual teacher and listen to its guidance. These three things are fundamental. Nothing else is needed.
Moderator: So, you're saying that through Patriarchal Seon, one can achieve the complete liberation that the Buddha attained, experience the same state, and that you urge people to be confident and believe in that?
Master: If one does not believe that, then one cannot study Seon. Some people say that since Seon originated in China, it has no relation to Buddhism, and such people would not be able to study Seon.
Moderator: So, we should hold that faith and investigate the mass of doubt?
Master: No, do not investigate. If you have faith, go find a wise teacher and listen to their teachings.
Moderator: So, having faith and finding a wise teacher completes the path of Patriarchal Seon?
Master: Do not try to do something based on your own thoughts and judgment. You must find a wise teacher with correct insight and listen to their teachings. This is because a person who has not yet attained enlightenment cannot follow the right path if they rely on their own thoughts and judgment. This is because before experiencing enlightenment, one can never truly know what enlightenment is. Therefore, one must absolutely receive guidance from someone who has already walked that path.
Moderator: If that's the case, have you achieved complete enlightenment?
Master: Well, I can't say that myself. However, I am satisfied. I am.
Moderator: What kind of satisfaction?
Master: First, mentally speaking, I have very few afflictions, so to speak. When I say I teach people, in fact, I teach nothing. Not being free from afflictions is an individual's own internal problem. But since they cannot resolve it themselves, my role is probably to continuously stimulate them from the outside so that it can be resolved naturally within their own being. But ultimately, they resolve it themselves.
Moderator: Who are you, Master?
Master: Me?
Moderator: Yes.
Master: Well, I can answer that in two ways. From a worldly perspective, I am Mr. Kim TaeWan. From a perspective beyond the worldly, there is no one to call "who." But if you actually study it, you can't definitively say it's this or that. That's why the name Dharma of Non-Duality (不二法門) is given. Of course, I don't live in a state without discrimination. I do discriminate, but I can say there is no discrimination. I do everything that ordinary people do in the world. I do everything, but there is always nothing. In other words, you could say I always live that way. It happens naturally. I can't put it any other way. Is emptiness (空) the conclusion simply because it's called emptiness? It's not like that. It's said to be empty and nonexistent, but it's not just nothing; everything is also there. Everything is there, and yet there is also nothing. That's why they said it's non-dual. It's a world where existence and non-existence are not two. From my perspective, that's how those words appear. That's it, simply. So, there's no fixed idea of 'This is enlightenment' or 'This is liberation.'
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Date: October 1, 2018, 2 PM
Location: Musim Seon Center, Seoul
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